Garner Incident-if you can say "I can't breathe," guess what you can breathe

[Thief]

I didn't say anything about the ease of anything.



There's lots of hands-on stuff I'm sure the NYPD are fully allotted to do, but using a choke hold isn't one of them.

In the video...it is obvious.....a take down from behind would/should be easiest.
So...maybe a swift thump with a night stick to the head is preferred?
How about a swift kick between those knees?
A cross swing on the kidneys perhaps?

I don't think...'please'...would work.

With an arrest record like his....he was about to spend jail time.
He knew it.

 

[Thief]

Ha. Remind me never to follow whatever rules you decide again. I mentioned dehumanization, you mentioned that if I were to do a poll that nobody would fit the description of dehumanizing, I said fair enough let's do a poll, you call me strawmanning with a poll.

Shall we dance?

.

.

.

Let's face it, Mes. You and I see very different things and put priority in different things. You say there's an appeal to emotion, I say there's a lack of humanity.

Oh...so now we digress to what is human and what is not?
Hmmmmm...criminal element as human........

Yeah he was human....and behaved like a criminal.
No criminal wants to be 'touched' by the law.

Too bad.

Human rights won't mean much without police enforcement.
Too bad the arrest went like it did.
But to compensate.....let's not arrest ANYONE!

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Oh...so now we digress to what is human and what is not?
Hmmmmm...criminal element as human........

Yeah he was human....and behaved like a criminal.
No criminal wants to be 'touched' by the law.

Too bad.

Human rights is the trump card.

 

[Thief]

Human rights is the trump card.

Until the criminal steps on yours.....trump.....trump....trump....

 

[gnomon]

Yes, the policed dept. banned the choke hold, but banned doesn't come close to being illegal.

You're the one making the claim that this was done, not me. I didn't see it. So the onus is on you to tell us when this was done.

Knee on his back huh. Well, I don't see it so you better tell us exactly what time this occurred.

Then how about showing them to us, because the only thing I read was the statement carried by CNN (see post 5)

""The cause of Garner's death was "compression of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police," said Julie Bolcer, a spokeswoman for the medical examiner's office. The death was ruled a homicide.
Acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease were listed as contributing conditions in a controversial death that sparked anti-police demonstrations and calls for a federal investigation."​

The contributing factors to Garner's death then, were

Principle factors

1) compression of neck
2) compression of chest
3) prone positioning during physical restraint​

Contributing factors

4) acute and chronic bronchial asthma
5) obesity
6) hypertensive cardiovascular disease​

The choke hold was not singled out.

Fine. Just give us the:

1) video times when a knee was placed on his back.

2) video times when the police officer who applied the choke hold kneeled on his back​

and the

3) coroner's report stating that the "mind died of an obstructed airway."​

The only thing I can say about the knee on his back is that I watched the video and after being brought to the ground the same officer put a knee on his back. Unfortunately in the same video the view becomes obscured. Namely that after being brought to the ground and the police officer who did so proceeded to put his body on Garner's back another officer steps in view of the camera.

Actually, reviewing the video, the same officer who placed the choke hold, declared illegal by his own police department, followed Garner to the ground with the hold and was wholly on Garner's back and proceeded to shove Garner's face into the ground with his knee on his back for a few seconds. Never mind the prior time that the choke hold was placed on Garner.

The main question I've heard in response to this incident is what else should the police have done. Well, they didn't perform a classic sleeper hold. The officer performed a choke hold. As well, it is established that the specific hold in question is banned by the NYPD in which this action took place. As well, there are numerous holds open to anyone who has studied basic and cheap martial arts about placing arm holds and leg holds on an individual to take them down to the ground.

Your principle factors lie solely on the responsibility of the officer in question who placed the hold that is clearly evident.

The video evidence is clearly there. I've already explained earlier as someone suffering from a pulmonary disorder who can be in dire need of breath but can still speak.

So what are you questioning?

Nothing.

Just give it up along this line of questioning. The man died and both a state and federal coroner determined that the man died primarily from a choke hold placed upon the individual that restricted his airway. That he had preexisting conditions that such a hold would have a substantial probability to lead to death is an irrelevant line of argument in abrogating this officers responsibility.

Now you are starting to bore me.

As far as the term banned by the police department and illegal it's arguing semantics. If the department banned the practice that means that an officer practicing a banned tactic upon an individual is liable. The grand jury found him not liable. That is the problem. If grand juries will not find individuals of the police department liable for their own proscribed acceptable conduct we have a serious problem in law enforcement.

Anything else you would like to ask. The officer placed him in a choke hold that can lead to death. He landed on the man's back and immediately placed his knee on his back while shoving his face to the ground.

All for selling cigarettes. Yes Garner was breaking a law. Anybody who has gone through a white belt initiation learns easier holds to place on an individual to bring them down to the ground. A professionally trained police officer knows better.

Any more excuses you want to bring forth?

The fact that none of the EMT's responded with life saving measures and Garner died an hour later, an established fact, doesn't matter to you. That the man was upright and living and within little more than an hour after an officer placed him an a proscribed choke hold and he died an hour later.......where is your brain. Up your ***.

My patience is running out for your sorry excuses. I've already described what it is like just to suffer from pulmonary sarcoidosis. Waking up in the night feeling like you are having a heart attack and short of breath just because your body has encapsulated some foreign material in your lungs. Imagine being an asthmatic with a heart condition having your windpipe crushed and laid out on the ground with at least an obviously 200 pound man landing on your back and then placing a knee on your back while shoving your face into the ground how hard it can be to breathe.

And anyone declaring that if someone exclaiming "I can't breathe" means you are actually engaging in the biological process of actual breathing, the intake of necessary oxygen to keep your cells functioning, rather than the mere act of vibrating air among your vocal cords that any exchange of air that doesn't include the actual process of breathing..........

**** you. There's no time for a lesson in biology and physics in this argument.

I'm run out with Skwim. Someone present me with a real argument. I have little time for fools.

Skwim wants video times. Apparently he refuses to actually watch the videos that shows him what he needs.

The actual moment when Garner states "I can't breathe" is when the officer who placed him in a choke hold and landed on his back on the take down finally let go of his neck.

This man was begging for his damn life.

**** you, Skwim.

This man may have had many prior minor convictions and was called by a company selling, of all things, cigarettes, that an officer felt it necessary to violently take this man down in such a manner.

Just **** you.

I'm tired of this ****.

Number 99 should be hung from a gallows. That would be real justice.

Does anyone want to see the seven minutes following the cops compressing this individual into the ground in which EMT's failed to deliver life saving measures on this guy and he was just rolled around unconscious right before he died. It's out there.

Just damn.

 

[gnomon]

”the choke hold may not have been a relevant factor at all.” You are creating a myth here my friend.
I followed this link and it says the same thing, “chokehold” was the cause of Garner’s death.
“The cause of Garner's death was "compression of neck (choke hold), compression of chest and prone positioning during physical restraint by police," said Julie Bolcer, a spokeswoman for the medical examiner's office. The death was ruled a homicide.” -CNN

“Chokehold” was the main cause according to the ME.

Contributing factors cause by the main cause were the ff:

“Acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease were listed as contributing conditions in a controversial death that sparked anti-police demonstrations and calls for a federal investigation.” -CNN

If it wasn’t for the “chokehold” he probably still be alive today and the chance of dying from the “contributing factors” is very slim, and those are, “Acute and chronic bronchial asthma, obesity and hypertensive cardiovascular disease”, and that is without the “chokehold”. IOW, the “contributing factors” would not be a factor at all if it wasn’t for the “chokehold”.

If it wasn't for the fact that we have accepted as a society such law enforcement tactics in enforcing such minimal laws this would not have happened.

Anyone out there waiting to vote for Hillary Clinton. She was one of the fools in the 1990's extolling the virtues of an amped up police department and harsh punishments including the three strike laws and her husbands admonition of a possibility of execution for drug dealers no matter what the actual crime.

Eric Garner's death isn't a fault of the NYPD. It's a fault among the electorate. It's us.

We have supported idiots in charge over and over and the idea that Hillary is some leader because a bunch of foolish liberals want to vote in a female POTUS, to the follow the first black POTUS, a bunch of horse****, we can expect only the same because people are not paying attention.

The legislators led Eric Garners death in New York with imbecilic tax laws and moral laws against cigarettes. If people want to buy smokes let them and stop taxing them disproportionately to non-smokers shoving their faces with bacon or misguided organic alternatives. They are not hurting anyone. Yet the fools in New York decided to enact ridiculous tax laws to enforce morality which led to Eric Garner schepping cigarettes on a street corner to make some money. And we as a nation are spending tax money on organization to fight this idiotic crime.

Give it up already. The libertarians are right on this matter. Use social media to get people off vices and not the legislator.

Jesus Christ. What's next. Bacon? Bacon leads to heart malfunctions so we need our legislators to write laws and increase taxes and restrict health care to those eating bacon....waah!....waah!....waah!

Let's vote for the next fool with an imbecilic health care plan rather than letting the people be.

 

[gnomon]

To quote myself.

The maligned SJW's in this world need to stop being SJW's through the legislative branch. That's the problem.

Restrict law enforcement to actual crimes and stop enforcing lifestyle adjustments on the populace such as idiotic tobacco taxes that drive up the price of a vice that leads to someone like Eric Garner selling something as simple as tobacco on a street corner.

Stop it.

Stop it!!!!

Yet I feel so many reading this very liberal complaint of mine are ready to vote for Elizabeth Warren as the next POTUS.

Please don't. Find a better reason. Due to the insane ramblings of a madman.

 

[Skwim]

The only thing I can say about the knee on his back is that I watched the video and after being brought to the ground the same officer put a knee on his back. Unfortunately in the same video the view becomes obscured. Namely that after being brought to the ground and the police officer who did so proceeded to put his body on Garner's back another officer steps in view of the camera.

After being brought to the ground officer 99 (the number on his shirt) ended up lying to Gardner's side. At no time is anyone shown lying on Gardner's back. The only time the knee of officer 99 is shown is when it's seen in a flexed upright position, the left foot planted squarely on the ground. In fact, O-99 is in such a position that he could never have had his knee on Gardner's back.

Actually, reviewing the video, the same officer who placed the choke hold, declared illegal by his own police department, . . .

Good grief man, do you really equate ban with illegal? The choke hold was banned but never declared Illegal. Police departments don't have the authority to declare anything illegal.

. . . followed Garner to the ground with the hold and was wholly on Garner's back and proceeded to shove Garner's face into the ground with his knee on his back for a few seconds. Never mind the prior time that the choke hold was placed on Garner.

Take another look

The officer performed a choke hold. As well, it is established that the specific hold in question is banned by the NYPD in which this action took place.

So now it's no longer illegal but banned.

As far as the term banned by the police department and illegal it's arguing semantics.

ARGUING SEMANTICS? Good grief.

Are you completely clueless that just such "semantics" is immensely relevant to the culpability of O-99? If O-99 preformed an illegal move then he would be guilty of committing a crime. As it was he was only guilty committing an infraction of police policy; a ban.

**** you. There's no time for a lesson in biology and physics in this argument.

I'm run out with Skwim. Someone present me with a real argument. I have little time for fools.

Skwim wants video times. Apparently he refuses to actually watch the videos that shows him what he needs.

The actual moment when Garner states "I can't breathe" is when the officer who placed him in a choke hold and landed on his back on the take down finally let go of his neck.

This man was begging for his damn life.

**** you, Skwim.

This man may have had many prior minor convictions and was called by a company selling, of all things, cigarettes, that an officer felt it necessary to violently take this man down in such a manner.

Just **** you.

I'm tired of this ****.

Number 99 should be hung from a gallows. That would be real justice.

Does anyone want to see the seven minutes following the cops compressing this individual into the ground in which EMT's failed to deliver life saving measures on this guy and he was just rolled around unconscious right before he died. It's out there.

Just damn.

I've never had this kind of impact on anyone, E-V-E-R. Could this be love.

 

[Thief]

So I took another look.
The big guy was wrong at the wrong time.

 

[JM2C]

Good grief!!!

I see no ME medical report, only a linked CNN article that has a brief statement by Julie Bolcer, a spokeswoman for the medical examiner's office. Assuming you're unaware, let me apprise you that a brief statement by Julie Bolcer, a spokeswoman for the medical examiner's office does not, and I repeat, DOES NOT, constitute a ME report. And believe it or not, but CNN's headlines for their stories---in this case, "Choke hold by cop killed NY man, medical examiner says"---do not always reflect the truth. no matter how convenient it may be.

All of which brings us back to the starting gate. You obviously didn't read any ME medical report as you intimated, and, in fact, probably don't even know what an ME medical report is. FYI, here is the summation page of one such report.

Does this look like anything you read? I didn't think so.

Sorry, but this doesn't make your point any stronger. It only makes you look desperate.

Really! Because I read that there were three primary factors;

"The cause of Garner's death was (1) "compression of neck (choke hold), (2) compression of chest and (3) prone positioning during physical restraint by police,"​

and three contributing factors

"(1) Acute and chronic bronchial asthma, (2) obesity and (3)hypertensive cardiovascular disease were listed as contributing conditions . . . ."
​

Not a thing about the choke hold being the sole cause of Garner's death, which is what you imply by conveniently leaving out the other two primary factors. .


Just can't bring yourself to acknowledge the other two can you.

Just can't bring yourself to acknowledge the other two can you.

But never mind, your tap dancing here is nothing new.

Who is Julie Bolcer again? Just a "spokeswoman for the medical examiner's office". IOW, she was speaking as if she was the ME.

What did the "spokeswoman for the medical examiner's office" said about the cause of death again?

"The cause of Garner's death was (1) "compression of neck (choke hold), (2) compression of chest and (3) prone positioning during physical restraint by police,"

But you said

After watching the video I have to disagree. It's not evident at all that the choke hold was the decisive factor in Gerard's death. In fact, because of all the other factors that may have played a part in his demise, the choke holdmay nothave been a relevant factor at all.

You see how contradict yourself.

 

[JM2C]

Eric Garner's death isn't a fault of the NYPD. It's a fault among the electorate. It's us.

We cannot condemn a whole group of people for the mistake of the few.

The legislators led Eric Garners death in New York with imbecilic tax laws and moral laws against cigarettes. If people want to buy smokes let them and stop taxing them disproportionately to non-smokers shoving their faces with bacon or misguided organic alternatives. They are not hurting anyone. Yet the fools in New York decided to enact ridiculous tax laws to enforce morality which led to Eric Garner schepping cigarettes on a street corner to make some money. And we as a nation are spending tax money on organization to fight this idiotic crime.

NYPD chief remains silent on Eric Garner mess - NY Daily News

 

[MysticSang'ha]

We cannot condemn a whole group of people for the mistake of the few.
NYPD chief remains silent on Eric Garner mess - NY Daily News

I think gnomon has a point here. We're partially complicit when we elect folks to legislate the very laws that must be enforced. We also are complicit when we have all the evidence at our disposal but choose to completely exonerate an officer who killed an unarmed man who never posed a threat. And we are complicit when we think the grand jury is correct by saying that they have the evidence that we don't.

It's why I vote, speak up, and spend my money as carefully as I can. I wish I could do more.

 

[JM2C]

I think gnomon has a point here. We're partially complicit when we elect folks to legislate the very laws that must be enforced. We also are complicit when we have all the evidence at our disposal but choose to completely exonerate an officer who killed an unarmed man who never posed a threat. And we are complicit when we think the grand jury is correct by saying that they have the evidence that we don't.


It's why I vote, speak up, and spend my money as carefully as I can. I wish I could do more.

So changing political view will cure the ailments. Let’s face it that when it comes to what you called when the rubber meets road or the reality of the theatrical politics that’s going on in DC is like making oil and water into one substance, or the reality of it all is, it’s not going to happen or change a thing to make it into reality. In NYC alone shepherding 36000+ cops to perfection is impossible. There will always be some bad sheep that will stray away from the shepherd and that will always contaminates the good ones. Can a politician do something about it?

 

[Skwim]

Who is Julie Bolcer again? Just a "spokeswoman for the medical examiner's office". IOW, she was speaking as if she was the ME.

What did the "spokeswoman for the medical examiner's office" said about the cause of death again?

"The cause of Garner's death was (1) "compression of neck (choke hold), (2) compression of chest and (3) prone positioning during physical restraint by police,"

But you said

After watching the video I have to disagree. It's not evident at all that the choke hold was the decisive factor in Gerard's death. In fact, because of all the other factors that may have played a part in his demise, the choke hold may not have been a relevant factor at all.

You see how contradict yourself

.

Not at all. I just question the ME's conclusion.

 

[JM2C]

Not at all. I just question the ME's conclusion.

Did you in Brown's case?

 

[Skwim]

Did you in Brown's case?

This one? Nope.

 

[dust1n]

In the video...it is obvious.....a take down from behind would/should be easiest.
So...maybe a swift thump with a night stick to the head is preferred?
How about a swift kick between those knees?
A cross swing on the kidneys perhaps?

I don't think...'please'...would work.

With an arrest record like his....he was about to spend jail time.
He knew it.

Boy, do I hope we avoid crossing paths ever.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Once more......Don't wave your hands at the police and say.....don't touch me.

What's so hard about that?

Because them doing certain things to me may be violating my rights, and I am not the type to let them push me around, especially if I am in no hurry.

Until the criminal steps on yours.....trump.....trump....trump....

What human rights were Gardnerviolating?

 

[Thief]

Because them doing certain things to me may be violating my rights, and I am not the type to let them push me around, especially if I am in no hurry.


What human rights were Gardnerviolating?

It's not up to the resistant after the words.....put your hands behind your back....
You're under arrest...

line drawn.

Criminals violate our laws hence the term...criminal.

Want to go back to mob retaliation?
Arrest procedures in place.... you are protected.
Any resistant violates that procedure.

Really sorry the big guy didn't want to cooperate.
But he is a good example of what NOT TO DO!

Your rights are protected by compliance.
Say no.....get roughed up.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Really sorry the big guy didn't want to cooperate.
But he is a good example of what NOT TO DO!

That is still no excuse to use an illegal choke hold on the man.
You still didn't answer what human right he violated. One need not violate a human right to be a criminal.