Garner Incident-if you can say "I can't breathe," guess what you can breathe

[Thief]

That is still no excuse to use an illegal choke hold on the man.
You still didn't answer what human right he violated. One need not violate a human right to be a criminal.

It looked like a simple effort to take down from behind.
The resistant's effort compounded the problem.

Black belt here!!!!!!

It's a running joke among the higher ranks.....
Look out for the white belts....they could hurt you!

That's because the techniques are taught in a manner to prevent injury to the student.

But if you don't go with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your turn to the left when you're suppose to go right....will cause SERIOUS injury.

The big guy went forward instead of down on his butt.
OOOOps!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It looked like a simple effort to take down from behind.
The resistant's effort compounded the problem.

Black belt here!!!!!!

It's a running joke among the higher ranks.....
Look out for the white belts....they could hurt you!

That's because the techniques are taught in a manner to prevent injury to the student.

But if you don't go with it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Your turn to the left when you're suppose to go right....will cause SERIOUS injury.

The big guy went forward instead of down on his butt.
OOOOps!

Former wrestler and grapple here. Choke holds are not the only way to take someone down. There are also many holds that wont hurt someone too badly (assuming they don't thrash around too much), but it's very easy to control someone or just hold them until they wear themselves out. The best holds, when properly applied, take very little effort to hold.
And let's be honest, there was one of him and a few of them. There was no reason to resort to a choke hold, of which any type is very aggressive and are not designed to restrain but to totally dominate, render unconscious, and even kill.
In addition, him applying such a hold would have made it impossible to handcuff the guy until he was off of him, so no matter how you look at it the cop made a very bad call.

 

[Thief]

Former wrestler and grapple here. Choke holds are not the only way to take someone down. There are also many holds that wont hurt someone too badly (assuming they don't thrash around too much), but it's very easy to control someone or just hold them until they wear themselves out. The best holds, when properly applied, take very little effort to hold.
And let's be honest, there was one of him and a few of them. There was no reason to resort to a choke hold, of which any type is very aggressive and are not designed to restrain but to totally dominate, render unconscious, and even kill.
In addition, him applying such a hold would have made it impossible to handcuff the guy until he was off of him, so no matter how you look at it the cop made a very bad call.

See video.
Still resisting....still speaking....hold released....
Cuffs went on.

Asthma finished the poor guy.

oooops

Care to expound?....take down from behind....LARGE fellow

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Asthma finished the poor guy.

Which was directly caused by the choke hold.

Care to expound?....take down from behind....LARGE fellow

Those cops didn't look small themselves. And let's be honest, what could Garner have done? There is no way he could have ran from them, outwrestled them, outlasted them, and because there were so many of them there was realistically nothing he could have done. At most he could have tried to thrash about for awhile until he wore enough to be able to cuff him. This probably would not have taken long even without a choke hold.

 

[Skwim]

Former wrestler and grapple here. Choke holds are not the only way to take someone down. There are also many holds that wont hurt someone too badly (assuming they don't thrash around too much), but it's very easy to control someone or just hold them until they wear themselves out. The best holds, when properly applied, take very little effort to hold.

Gardner weighed 350 pounds and Officer 99 looks like he weights about 185 pounds. And that's a tremendous difference, which is reflected in the comparatively small difference in weight between the amateur wrestling classes. The weight classes in college wrestling differ by only 8-10 lbs., the reason being, there is a definite advantage to weighing more. In collegiate wrestling there are ten weight classes, and in high school wrestling there are fourteen, and the AAU has fifteen weight classes, So which were you in?
Think it's that easy to take down an opponent close to twice your weight? Speaking as a former high school wrestler (only one year) it ain't that easy no matter how you go about it. In fact, it's almost impossible to do legitimately.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Gardner weighed 350 pounds and Officer 99 looks like he weights about 185 pounds. And that's a tremendous difference, which is reflected in the comparatively small difference in weight between the amateur wrestling classes. The weight classes in college wrestling differ by only 8-10 lbs., the reason being, there is a definite advantage to weighing more. In collegiate wrestling there are ten weight classes, and in high school wrestling there are fourteen, and the AAU has fifteen weight classes, So which were you in?
Think it's that easy to take down an opponent close to twice your weight? Speaking as a former high school wrestler (only one year) it ain't that easy no matter how you go about it. In fact, it's almost impossible to do legitimately.

There is also a huge advantage in there being several of you and only one of them. That, on it's own, makes for a much bigger advantage than weight.

 

[Revoltingest]

Gardner weighed 350 pounds and Officer 99 looks like he weights about 185 pounds. And that's a tremendous difference, which is reflected in the comparatively small difference in weight between the amateur wrestling classes. The weight classes in college wrestling differ by only 8-10 lbs., the reason being, there is a definite advantage to weighing more. In collegiate wrestling there are ten weight classes, and in high school wrestling there are fourteen, and the AAU has fifteen weight classes, So which were you in?
Think it's that easy to take down an opponent close to twice your weight? Speaking as a former high school wrestler (only one year) it ain't that easy no matter how you go about it. In fact, it's almost impossible to do legitimately.

There's an advantage to weighing more if both combatants are equally fit. But in this case that does not apply. Garner's weight would even be a disadvantage.

Lookie here all you guyz...each side is touting what it finds most significant, but these perspectives aren't in conflict.
- Garner shouldn't have resisted (for his own sake) as he did.
- The cops shouldn't have assaulted him as they did, particularly with the prohibited choke hold.

 

[methylatedghosts]

So I've read all the thread here, and I gotta say it's difficult. As revolting said above, both parties here made mistakes. The first for resisting, the second for the hold. I feel for the poor man's family who may have just discovered that not only was he doing something illegal (which must be quite a shock on it's own), but that now he's dead too. And I certainly feel for the poor officer who killed someone when who may have only been doing what he thought was right. I'm sure his hindsight is telling him right now, all the ways he could have done it differently.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Also feel I've got to say: your police force terrifies me. Only time i've seen cops with guns here is one time the armed offenders squad were down the road a way because of reports of someone with a gun who made a bomb threat. His gun was legal... The threat not so much

 

[Skwim]

There is also a huge advantage in there being several of you and only one of them. That, on it's own, makes for a much bigger advantage than weight.

So, which weight class did you wrestle in, and where HS, college, or other (please explain)?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So, which weight class did you wrestle in, and where HS, college, or other (please explain)?

What does that have to do with anything? Weight can be an advantage, but not always. Garner was heavier, but just by looking at him you can tell he wasn't physically fit, and he had no real advantage over the cops.

 

[Midnight Rain]

Wow another intellectual post.

This is very simple.

If you can talk you can breathe. It's really not that hard of a concept to grasp.

The name calling doesn't impress me.

Also very simple-- if you have health problems, don't resist arrest.

If he could breath why is he dead? If the amount of force necessary to take someone down is not exceeded why did he die?

Though simply saying 'don't resist arrest" isn't actually an argument against police brutality. There are cases where it is ethical and warranted to resist arrest.

 

[Skwim]

What does that have to do with anything?

Just curious is all. (actually, we need it for our file on you.)

Weight can be an advantage, but not always. Garner was heavier, but just by looking at him you can tell he wasn't physically fit, and he had no real advantage over the cops

Then why was it necessary to use a banned choke hold to bring him down, and three others to assist? No need to answer.

 

[Thief]

Which was directly caused by the choke hold.

Those cops didn't look small themselves. And let's be honest, what could Garner have done? There is no way he could have ran from them, outwrestled them, outlasted them, and because there were so many of them there was realistically nothing he could have done. At most he could have tried to thrash about for awhile until he wore enough to be able to cuff him. This probably would not have taken long even without a choke hold.

Put your hands behind your back and go to jail quietly.

Asthma is not caused by chokeholds.

 

[Revoltingest]

Just curious is all. (actually, we need it for our file on you.)

Then why was it necessary to use a banned choke hold to bring him down, and three others to assist?

Was it necessary? I don't think so.
Was the choke hold banned from cops using it? Yes.
Given the guy's demeanor (lucid & non-threatening), I would've spent more time just talking to him before resorting to violence.

No need to answer.

You know I had to answer....I'm working towards 60K posts this month.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Put your hands behind your back and go to jail quietly.

Asthma is not caused by chokeholds.

If the Commissioner of the NYPD thinks that his police force's standard approach is problematic, why do you think it's okay?

Police Commissioner Bill Bratton said officials were aware of the medical examiner's findings and the department is cooperating with prosecutors. He has said the NYPD's use-of-force training is lacking and has pledged to retrain all 35,000 officers.

Autopsy: Police chokehold caused NYC man's death

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Put your hands behind your back and go to jail quietly.

Asthma is not caused by chokeholds.

He didn't just have a magical from-out-of-no-where asthma attack that killed him. His death was ruled a homicide (and without massive conflicting reports), the NYPD commissioner said the police force's approach to force is not good, and again, NO ONE should have to cooperate with police, for any reason, under penalty of death. **** that! That is only ever appropriate in a dystopic novel, not in real life. We have a division between police, judge, and jury for a reason. We have far too many piggies who take it upon themselves to assume the role of judge, jury, and executioner.

 

[Reverend Rick]

This guy sold illegal cigarettes, he should have been issued a citation not choked to death. I normally support law enforcement, but this time I cannot.

 

[Reverend Rick]

It is medically unsafe to handcuff some people behind the back. Society is getting older and more overweight. I don't think at any point and time the officers lives where in danger. This is not a one size fits all police state.

The "Us against them" police mentality has to stop. It's not their job to search for infractions, they are to serve and protect.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Selling illegal cigarettes is a victimless crime. No victim no crime I say!

Too many infractions are "The State vs someone "

What kind of country lets just anyone walk across our border without ID and even let's them vote and receive assistance and then enforces bull **** laws about some tax stamp on ciggarettes?