Gender Neutral Bathrooms converted back

[Orbit]

For good reason. The vast majority of women and trans men don't pose a threat to biological males. Women are given cause to have same-sex spaces and it's why society has sex-segregated spaces rather than gender-identifying segregation.

According to RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network), which is the nation's largest anti-sexual violence organization and operates the National Sexual Assault Hotline:

• 1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed, 2.8% attempted). Whereas about 3% of American men—or 1 in 33—have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.

View attachment 83262

And per the Bureau of Judicial Statistics:

The most frightening form of rape, an assault by a total stranger, was the most common. More than 75 percent of all rapes involved one victim and one offender, and most offenders were unarmed. Most victims offered some form of resistance. The most common responses to the situation were trying to get help; resisting physically; to threatening, arguing, or reasoning with the offender; or resisting without force.

The CDC reports similar numbers and notes,

Over half of women and almost 1 in 3 men have experienced sexual violence involving physical contact during their lifetimes. One in 4 women and about 1 in 26 men have experienced completed or attempted rape. Additionally, 1 in 3 women and about 1 in 9 men experienced sexual harassment in a public place.​

It's common in these discussions for gynophobic arguments to be dismissive of women's needs and concerns, but they are real and ever present nonetheless. Instead of waving off the matter, the issue at hand is what to do to address the needs and safety of biological females if same-sex spaces are to be phased out?

Predators are opportunists and that will influence current statistics, and not for the better. Just like any other group, biological women have real world concerns based in real world needs due to real world threats. So perhaps the conversation should shift, in part, on what to do for this group while addressing the wants of another group instead of debaters writing it off as nothing more than unfounded alarmism, hyperbole, or political maneuvering.

Your post has nothing to do with bathrooms, or assaults that occur in bathrooms, which is what we are talking about in this thread.

 

[Debater Slayer]

For good reason. The vast majority of women and trans men don't pose a threat to biological males. Women are given cause to have same-sex spaces and it's why society has sex-segregated spaces rather than gender-identifying segregation.

According to RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network), which is the nation's largest anti-sexual violence organization and operates the National Sexual Assault Hotline:

• 1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed, 2.8% attempted). Whereas about 3% of American men—or 1 in 33—have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.

View attachment 83262

And per the Bureau of Judicial Statistics:

The most frightening form of rape, an assault by a total stranger, was the most common. More than 75 percent of all rapes involved one victim and one offender, and most offenders were unarmed. Most victims offered some form of resistance. The most common responses to the situation were trying to get help; resisting physically; to threatening, arguing, or reasoning with the offender; or resisting without force.​

The CDC reports similar numbers and notes,

Over half of women and almost 1 in 3 men have experienced sexual violence involving physical contact during their lifetimes. One in 4 women and about 1 in 26 men have experienced completed or attempted rape. Additionally, 1 in 3 women and about 1 in 9 men experienced sexual harassment in a public place.​

It's common in these discussions for gynophobic arguments to be dismissive of women's needs and concerns, but they are real and ever present nonetheless. Instead of waving off the matter, the issue at hand is what to do to address the needs and safety of biological females if same-sex spaces are to be phased out?

Predators are opportunists and that will influence current statistics, and not for the better. Just like any other group, biological women have real world concerns based in real world needs due to real world threats. So perhaps the conversation should shift, in part, on what to do for this group while addressing the wants of another group instead of debaters writing it off as nothing more than unfounded alarmism, hyperbole, or political maneuvering.

I expressed a partially similar thought in an earlier post:

I do sympathize with some women's concerns about seeing biological males in women's restrooms and find said concerns understandable, since males as a group are indeed the largest source of violence against females. I don't think such a concern has to necessarily be rooted in anti-trans sentiment. However, what I disagree with is the idea that sympathizing with those concerns or finding them understandable necessitates exclusion of trans women from women's restrooms, especially when one considers that this logic would also force trans men to use women's restrooms despite looking like men.

It's not a simple issue, and scapegoating all trans women doesn't seem to me helpful to anyone.

What do you think should be done to address the concerns you mentioned while also accommodating trans women and ensuring they're not banned from women's restrooms based on worry about actions that the vast majority of them will never commit?

 

[icehorse]

Your post has nothing to do with bathrooms, or assaults that occur in bathrooms, which is what we are talking about in this thread.

zoom out, see the bigger picture

 

[Alien826]

Not biologically possible. Your conscious mind is in charge of very little. Your unconscious brain is in charge of most things, and "fear" is above the pay grade of your mind.

Absolutely incorrect. I can think of many occasions where I have gritted my teeth and persisted in a fearful situation. And in many cases I found that my fear was unwarranted and I no longer felt the fear. Or that the fear was warranted but I learned to suppress it.

As an example, before I learned to swim (as a child) I was deathly afraid of going into deep water in a small boat. I did it anyway and tried to ignore the fear. After I learned to swim I had no such fears.

The conscious mind can override the subconscious if it decides to.

 

[Orbit]

zoom out, see the bigger picture

The bigger picture is beside the point, unless you are suggesting that sexual assault in general will stop if we bar trans people from public restrooms.

 

[JustGeorge]

Predators are opportunists and that will influence current statistics, and not for the better. Just like any other group, biological women have real world concerns based in real world needs due to real world threats. So perhaps the conversation should shift, in part, on what to do for this group while addressing the wants of another group instead of debaters writing it off as nothing more than unfounded alarmism, hyperbole, or political maneuvering.

I feel that single stall restrooms would properly address any concerns.

 

[Callisto]

Your post has nothing to do with bathrooms, or assaults that occur in bathrooms, which is what we are talking about in this thread.

It does.

 

[Orbit]

It does.

There is nothing in what you posted that gives figures for attacks occurring in bathrooms, so I don't see how you can say that.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Has no one here run into the bathroom opposite to their sex? Like seriously?
I’ve done that multiple times, whilst sober even
No one died

I haven't but I took my son into the women's bathroom until he was 5. After that I just stood right outside the men's bathroom and glared disapprovingly at any guy who walked in.

 

[Callisto]

I feel that single stall restrooms would properly address any concerns.

In new construction, for sure. Unfortunately, it's not a viable solution in all buildings or situations due to space limitations, renovation costs, and/or the type of event.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I think how one feels about transgenderism and how they feel about this bathroom stuff are less connected than some suggest. I couldn't care less what you label yourself or what's between your legs tbh. But I do care about creeps, pedophiles, etc. In my HS we had a guy pretend to be gay (confirmed) so he could always go in the girls bathroom, watch them change, etc. Real creep. These open bathrooms, locker rooms, etc only encourage this stuff.

My two cents? As someone with GI issues, as someone traumatized in school bathrooms haha.... just have individual single person bathrooms. A private little business-esque bathroom, one person at a time.

Being gay wouldn't require you go into the opposite gender's bathroom though. What a jerk.

 

[Debater Slayer]

In new construction, for sure. Unfortunately, it's not a viable solution in all buildings or situations due to space limitations, renovation costs, and/or the type of event.

Your post brought up concerns, but you haven't shared what you think solutions could be. What do you think should or could be done, if anything?

 

[Callisto]

There is nothing in what you posted that gives figures for attacks occurring in bathrooms, so I don't see how you can say that.

It falls under the category of attacks by strangers, not every scenario was stated. Predators are opportunists and will exploit the situation.

 

[1137]

Being gay wouldn't require you go into the opposite gender's bathroom though. What a jerk.

Require no, but it was spun as "okay" because "he doesn't like girls." Which he, in fact, did. Guys are creepy and I say that as one.

 

[JustGeorge]

In new construction, for sure. Unfortunately, it's not a viable solution in all buildings or situations due to space limitations, renovation costs, and/or the type of event.

Its something that could be undertaken here forward.

For existing structures, I'm not really sure there's going to be any happy medium that's going to please everyone. What are your ideas?

For the "everyone goes to the bathroom of the gender they were assigned at birth" crowd, there seems to be assumptions that transpeople stick out. While a few do, there's a lot that no one ever suspects. By this, we now have someone that has a full beard using the woman's restroom. I would think those who are scared to see a man in their bathroom would be equally unnerved by this. And who's to say some predator wouldn't sneak in and say he was born female? Where does the line get drawn?

And who's checking? I'd hate to think at some point we start getting carded at the bathroom door.

 

[Orbit]

It falls under the category of attacks by strangers, not every scenario was stated. Predators are opportunists and will exploit the situation.

You are ignoring the peer-reviewed studies that I posted that attacks on women by trans people are NOT occurring in bathrooms.

 

[Alien826]

Here's a thought.

Every so often something comes up in society that disturbs people. Go back in history a bit and you find examples like women wearing trousers. Women voting is another. Same sex marriage is more recent. Every time, we get a concert of "shock, horror, won't anyone think of the children" for a while, then when the sky doesn't actually fall it all settles down and the majority of people accept it as normal. And every time we get a somewhat more tolerant society.

I can't say with certainty that this will fit that pattern, but I'm betting that it will. Until the next "the sky is falling" thing comes along of course.

 

[Callisto]

Your post brought up concerns, but you haven't shared what you think solutions could be. What do you think should or could be done, if anything?

I brought up those concerns because they are routinely dismissed in these discussions as made-up or simply irrelevant. The solution is to keep same-sex segregated spaces which have not prevented trans persons from using facilities in the past.The difference is, before, women were not maligned and ridiculed for being wary if an obviously biological male entered those spaces without good reason (e.g., helping a child or woman, having an emergency himself).

 

[Callisto]

You are ignoring the peer-reviewed studies that I posted that attacks on women by trans people are NOT occurring in bathrooms.

I said nothing about trans persons being attackers.

 

[Orbit]

I said nothing a out trans persons being attackers.

Well, that is what the conversation was about at that point.