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Gender Neutral Bathrooms converted back

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Its something that could be undertaken here forward.
Sure.
For existing structures, I'm not really sure there's going to be any happy medium that's going to please everyone. What are your ideas?

For the "everyone goes to the bathroom of the gender they were assigned at birth" crowd, there seems to be assumptions that transpeople stick out. While a few do, there's a lot that no one ever suspects. By this, we now have someone that has a full beard using the woman's restroom. I would think those who are scared to see a man in their bathroom would be equally unnerved by this. And who's to say some predator wouldn't sneak in and say he was born female? Where does the line get drawn?

And who's checking? I'd hate to think at some point we start getting carded at the bathroom door.

Trans persons have been using public toilets for as long as they've (toilets) existed. Friends who transitioned years ago never found this to be a problem. Typically, if they still appeared to obviously be their biological sex, like at the start, they used the corresponding toilet regardless of how they identified. Further along their journey when they were perceived as their preferred gender, they'd use the one for the sex associated with that gender. Changing rooms and communal showers are on a case by case basis.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I brought up those concerns because they are routinely dismissed in these discussions as made-up or simply irrelevant.

I posted acknowledging them shortly before you posted in this thread.

The solution is to keep same-sex segregated spaces which have not prevented trans persons from using facilities in the past.

How would that be enforced, though? If a trans woman looked feminine and didn't attract much attention, she would technically still be prohibited from using the women's restroom by such a rule. On the other hand, trans men who were still biologically female would be forced to use women's restrooms while looking noticeably masculine.

The difference is, before, women were not maligned and ridiculed for being wary if an obviously biological male entered those spaces without good reason (e.g., helping a child or woman, having an emergency himself).

I don't think having concerns is grounds for ridiculing anyone, but a lot of anti-trans rhetoric is also wrapped in ostensible "concern" when the purpose is to exclude trans women even if they pose no more danger than other women. In my opinion, overgeneralized approaches like banning all trans women from women's restrooms or treating any woman who has concerns as anti-trans are not helpful.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Well, that is what the conversation was about at that point.
The conversation is the safety of women and the need for same-sex spaces, if which the current trans discussion is a part. Trans isn't the entirety of the matter, It's just become an aspect of it.
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
I posted acknowledging them shortly before you posted in this thread.
I didn't single you out, I stated the debate at large over umpteen circular debates.
How would that be enforced, though? If a trans woman looked feminine and didn't attract much attention, she would technically still be prohibited from using the women's restroom by such a rule. On the other hand, trans men who were still biologically female would be forced to use women's restrooms while looking noticeably masculine.
Again, this is not a new phenomenon and bathrooms are same sex based. Until recently, gender was used in the vernacular as synonymous with biological sex. Trans persons who presented as their preferred gender have always used the ones for the sex that gender was associated with.
I don't think having concerns is grounds for ridiculing anyone, but a lot of anti-trans rhetoric is also wrapped in ostensible "concern" when the purpose is to exclude trans women even if they pose no more danger than other women. In my opinion, overgeneralized approaches like banning all trans women from women's restrooms or treating any woman who has concerns as anti-trans are not helpful.
Banning isnt necessary, its an extremist reaction to the extremist element that's infiltrated trans rights and attracts the most attention. But a real issue is when any point that differs from a pro trans stance is devalued as simply being rhetoric, hyperbole, political or false when that's just not the case.

Trans women have always used bathrooms associated with women. But then, most trans persons (in my experience), largely fly under the radar. That had always been important. A major aspect to alleviating their dysphoria is to not draw attention to themselves, to blend in and be perceived much of the time as the gender they identify as, i.e. have no one look twice as they walk in. No one notices = no has an issue. And when the current drama dies down, that will still be the approach for most.
 

Little Dragon

Well-Known Member
So perhaps the conversation should shift, in part, on what to do for this group while addressing the wants of another group instead of debaters writing it off as nothing more than unfounded alarmism, hyperbole, or political maneuvering.
How many rapes and sexual assaults occur in public restrooms? Just out of interest..
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Absolutely incorrect. I can think of many occasions where I have gritted my teeth and persisted in a fearful situation. And in many cases I found that my fear was unwarranted and I no longer felt the fear. Or that the fear was warranted but I learned to suppress it.

As an example, before I learned to swim (as a child) I was deathly afraid of going into deep water in a small boat. I did it anyway and tried to ignore the fear. After I learned to swim I had no such fears.

The conscious mind can override the subconscious if it decides to.

Yes, you can force yourself to act. But that does not mean your subconscious is no longer afraid.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Here's a thought.

Every so often something comes up in society that disturbs people. Go back in history a bit and you find examples like women wearing trousers. Women voting is another. Same sex marriage is more recent. Every time, we get a concert of "shock, horror, won't anyone think of the children" for a while, then when the sky doesn't actually fall it all settles down and the majority of people accept it as normal. And every time we get a somewhat more tolerant society.

I can't say with certainty that this will fit that pattern, but I'm betting that it will. Until the next "the sky is falling" thing comes along of course.

Over the last decades women fought hard for more rights. Why should we regress?
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
Really. How unsurprising. What percentage of rapes and assaults, occur in female restrooms, on female or trans female victims? Do you think is accurate?
"Legislation, regulations, litigation, and ballot propositions affecting public restroom access for transgender people increased drastically in the last three years. Opponents of gender identity inclusive public accommodations nondiscrimination laws often cite fear of safety and privacy violations in public restrooms if such laws are passed, while proponents argue that such laws are needed to protect transgender people and concerns regarding safety and privacy violations are unfounded. No empirical evidence has been gathered to test such laws’ effects. This study presents findings from matched pairs analyses of localities in Massachusetts with and without gender identity inclusive public accommodation nondiscrimination ordinances. Data come from public record requests of criminal incident reports related to assault, sex crimes, and voyeurism in public restrooms, locker rooms, and dressing rooms to measure safety and privacy violations in these spaces. This study finds that the passage of such laws is not related to the number or frequency of criminal incidents in these spaces. Additionally, the study finds that reports of privacy and safety violations in public restrooms, locker rooms, and changing rooms are exceedingly rare. This study provides evidence that fears of increased safety and privacy violations as a result of nondiscrimination laws are not empirically grounded."

 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
This study provides evidence that fears of increased safety and privacy violations as a result of nondiscrimination laws are not empirically grounded."
Perhaps there are more studies, but you're pushing this one study pretty hard ;)
 

Callisto

Hellenismos, BTW
Really. How unsurprising. What percentage of rapes and assaults, occur in female restrooms, on female or trans female victims? Do you think is accurate?
What does it matter if it's 10, 1000 or 10,000 or 1 million?

What number do you think makes it ok for SA to happen? What number do you think makes it not ok?
 
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