Gender Neutral Bathrooms converted back

[JustGeorge]

does my post #158 answer these questions? If not, what do you need me to clarify more? thanks

Not quite. We have a person in the area that I've seen walking for years. I have no idea if this person is male/female something else. I really have no clue... Sometimes its not cut and dried.

Though I wonder if a person who is androgynous like that could go into either restroom without a fuss. I don't think being androgynous is on any part of the person mentioned... I think there's little interest in the appearance.

 

[icehorse]

Not quite. We have a person in the area that I've seen walking for years. I have no idea if this person is male/female something else. I really have no clue... Sometimes its not cut and dried.

Though I wonder if a person who is androgynous like that could go into either restroom without a fuss. I don't think being androgynous is on any part of the person mentioned... I think there's little interest in the appearance.

Got it. So our current system is far from perfect, and not everyone is treated equally.

Now some trans women have no interest in looking like women. For example, they might have full beards. When a person like this goes into women's safe spaces they are making our currently imperfect solutions even less perfect - for all women.

Why would they do that?

 

[JustGeorge]

Got it. So our current system is far from perfect, and not everyone is treated equally.

Now some trans women have no interest in looking like women. For example, they might have full beards. When a person like this goes into women's safe spaces they are making our currently imperfect solutions even less perfect - for all women.

Why would they do that?

I've yet to meet a person like this. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just that I've never heard of it(a person who says they're a woman, yet grows a beard, provided a hormonal problem isn't at play).

Mind providing some examples?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I've yet to meet a person like this. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just that I've never heard of it(a person who says they're a woman, yet grows a beard, provided a hormonal problem isn't at play).

Mind providing some examples?

There was an article in the news - an article worth some scrutiny being applied to it - about a trans woman who decided to keep a beard on purpose. This leaves a couple of questions, though:

1. Could they just be non-binary?

2. If it's okay for a cis woman to grow a beard - why not a trans woman?

 

[icehorse]

I've yet to meet a person like this. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just that I've never heard of it(a person who says they're a woman, yet grows a beard, provided a hormonal problem isn't at play).

Mind providing some examples?

search engines are your friend

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

search engines are your friend

I had a question.

Should cis women with facial hair be locked out of women's restrooms?

If no...

Then why should trans women with facial hair be locked out of them?

 

[icehorse]

2. If it's okay for a cis woman to grow a beard - why not a trans woman?

See my post #143.

I would say that both of these possibilities make life just a little bit worse for all women.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

To generalize a bit: traditionally trans people try to look like the gender they identify with. But recently some trans people don't worry about that.

So the result is that a trans woman - WHO LOOKS LIKE A MAN - can now enter women's safe spaces without being questioned. The issue is NOT whether the trans person is more violent than average. The issue is the NORMALIZATION of people who look like men entering women's safe spaces.

The other aspect of this that bears remembering is that fear and dread impact overall well being. If we make women feel less safe - even if just a little - that has a huge overall negative impact on the well being of the society.

So I would say that a trans woman who looks like a man is being extremely selfish and self-centered.

Some women may feel less safe. I don't think I can deny that for some women, they may feel less safe.

But I'm starting to strongly believe, that women's issues shouldn't be decided by men, and men's issues shouldn't be decided by women.

So if women decide that they don't want trans women in their spaces, then so be it. But trans women in women's spaces seems to be a bigger problem for men.

 

[Little Dragon]

1 - would she be mistaken for a man?
2 - I agree our current solutions are imperfect, but that's not reason to make them worse, correct?

1. Yes.
2. Correct.

 

[Little Dragon]

I've seen plenty of women who look like men. Its not even a trans or sexuality thing, they just look rather masculine.

Quite. When I was 14 I remember kissing a local boy while on a family holiday in Spain, that I had met earlier that day. It wasn't until a bit later, another spanish boy arrived on a moped and referred to my new holiday BF as his sister and that she had to go home now. Talk about confusing.

 

[JustGeorge]

search engines are your friend

Not really.

I know you don't know me on a personal level, but the time I get to myself is somewhat limited. In the event I do get uninterrupted time to just chill online, I'd rather spend it here chatting with my friends, not going down endless internet searches.

If you don't have an example, or just don't feel like sharing one, I understand. Your time is valuable, too.

 

[icehorse]

Not really.

I know you don't know me on a personal level, but the time I get to myself is somewhat limited. In the event I do get uninterrupted time to just chill online, I'd rather spend it here chatting with my friends, not going down endless internet searches.

If you don't have an example, or just don't feel like sharing one, I understand. Your time is valuable, too.

I'm going to type a phrase here. i think the site will automatically correct this for me. i'm sorry, this is just what it's called:

gender **** (gender ****)

So you can just type that phrase and you'll get a bunch of images. These are the folks that I think do NOT have the best interests of women in mind.

 

[JustGeorge]

I'm going to type a phrase here. i think the site will automatically correct this for me. i'm sorry, this is just what it's called:

gender **** (gender ****)

So you can just type that phrase and you'll get a bunch of images. These are the folks that I think do NOT have the best interests of women in mind.

I'm gonna be honest, I'm a little scared to put that into my search engine.

 

[icehorse]

I'm gonna be honest, I'm a little scared to put that into my search engine.

i would have to characterize it as "mostly weird"

 

[icehorse]

So if women decide that they don't want trans women in their spaces, then so be it.

fwiw, I don't make any of these claims if I haven't first heard them from feminists.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

fwiw, I don't make any of these claims if I haven't first heard them from feminists.

There are many different kinds of feminists. Not all feminists are the same. Sometimes, it seems like some are even polar opposites that are opposed to each other.

 

[icehorse]

So if women decide that they don't want trans women in their spaces, then so be it.

There are many different kinds of feminists. Not all feminists are the same. Sometimes, it seems like some are even polar opposites that are opposed to each other.

I'm trying to get your two statements above to square, can you clarify?

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I'm trying to get your two statements above to square, can you clarify?

Sure. So what I was trying to say, is that if the majority of women decide they don't want trans women in women's spaces, then perhaps it'd be best if trans women had their own spaces. However, the people naysaying are mostly a specific kind of feminist, some highly religious fundamentalist women, and men.

 

[icehorse]

However, the people naysaying are mostly a specific kind of feminist, some highly religious fundamentalist women, and men.

I'm sure some of the naysayers fall into that category, but I think you'd need some citations to back up the idea that "most" are a specific kind of feminist... (and what kind of feminist would that be?)

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I'm sure some of the naysayers fall into that category, but I think you'd need some citations to back up the idea that "most" are a specific kind of feminist... (and what kind of feminist would that be?)

Trans-exclusionary radical feminist.