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Gender specific events

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
Males are generally more mechanically minded and more likely to do something. That is the way it is, even if not as much as it used to be. I wonder what will happen when we succesfully turn women into men. Who will look after the kids? I suppose the government will be doing it then.
Yes, males are generally more mechanically minded. Generally. Whether that is nature or nurture or a combination, I honestly don't know. Not a psychologist. Some women will be interested in making cars "go fast" some men adore cooking and are still "manly." Generalities are just that. They don't describe every single person. Which is why people argue for the opportunity to be there in the first place. So people have a choice to do what interests them, not as a gender, but as a person. If a woman chooses to work in sewing, then so be it. If a man wants to work in aircraft engines, fine. Same is true of vice versa. Are you seriously against choice?

But you do realize of course that women working isn't a new thing even in the West, yeah?
With the industrial revolution especially, women were sought after to work in textile factories (among others) because of their smaller hands and willingness to work for less. Because poverty. And they worked as what we would label as children today. They also worked as Farmers, in paper factories and other jobs, often for less pay because.......well 1800s. On top of that they still would have had to raise the kids.
So are you saying that men aren't capable of both working a job and helping to raise the kids? Women have been doing it for at least a century in the West. At least the lower class women.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
Yes, males are generally more mechanically minded. Generally. Whether that is nature or nurture or a combination, I honestly don't know. Not a psychologist. Some women will be interested in making cars "go fast" some men adore cooking and are still "manly." Generalities are just that. They don't describe every single person.
^That.

I've been more electronic/mechanical minded since I was about 12 and helped my dad work on his cars and dabbled in electronics. My son has said he wants to be a chef since he was 4. When you let your kids pursue their interests, no matter what they may be, you don't limit their possibilities.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
There are all kinds of STEM events around my area throughout the year and each one has girls at it. 4-H puts them on all the time and it is co-ed and the local college and John Deere put on events and always invite Girl Scouts. Also,...I believe I make an excellent case for girls being interested in STEM subjects. ;)

So women are routinely encouraged to enter STEM? Well that's fantastic. I applaud them.

I don't fit into the "generalities" either, but a lot of people happen to. I am okay in the knowledge that most of my interests are "traditionally male."

But here's my thing. Why complain when there's still not a lot of women who enter STEM even with this encouragement? I don't understand. Maybe those women just don't want to be in STEM? Sometimes generalities happen to be true of many people, that's why they're generalities to begin with. Don't get me wrong, people should be free to pursue anything that makes them happen, whether or not that fits into their "traditional gender roles."

But don't you think this all goes a tad too far sometimes? Like for example (at least where I live) some STEM fields have quotas and want to get as many women as they can to fill those quotas, which you could argue is overall detrimental to women who legitimately want to do something in STEM as you create this sort of group of women who probably won't complete their study, entering in STEM only because of a quota. Which, let's be honest here, does reflect badly on the women who legitimately want to be there. Because then you create an extra layer for these same women to "prove themselves" instead of letting their work speak for them. Which is what STEM should be about.
I know women in STEM fields. One is doing her PHD. I find it interesting that she hates what she refers to as "Gender Studies dropouts." Her words not mine.
Which is exactly the type of group I'm referring to. Instead of having these quotas, how about just let anyone who is interested in a STEM field enter a STEM field. You'd sort out the women who just want to get on with it from the (to be perfectly frank) whiny princesses who just want to complain about being "oppressed."
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
So women are routinely encouraged to enter STEM? Well that's fantastic. I applaud them.

I don't fit into the "generalities" either, but a lot of people happen to. I am okay in the knowledge that most of my interests are "traditionally male."

But here's my thing. Why complain when there's still not a lot of women who enter STEM even with this encouragement? I don't understand. Maybe those women just don't want to be in STEM? Sometimes generalities happen to be true of many people, that's why they're generalities to begin with. Don't get me wrong, people should be free to pursue anything that makes them happen, whether or not that fits into their "traditional gender roles."

But don't you think this all goes a tad too far sometimes? Like for example (at least where I live) some STEM fields have quotas and want to get as many women as they can to fill those quotas, which you could argue is overall detrimental to women who legitimately want to do something in STEM as you create this sort of group of women who probably won't complete their study, entering in STEM only because of a quota. Which, let's be honest here, does reflect badly on the women who legitimately want to be there. Because then you create an extra layer for these same women to "prove themselves" instead of letting their work speak for them. Which is what STEM should be about.
I know women in STEM fields. One is doing her PHD. I find it interesting that she hates what she refers to as "Gender Studies dropouts." Her words not mine.
Which is exactly the type of group I'm referring to. Instead of having these quotas, how about just let anyone who is interested in a STEM field enter a STEM field. You'd sort out the women who just want to get on with it from the (to be perfectly frank) whiny princesses who just want to complain about being "oppressed."
They didn't do all this STEM stuff when I was growing up. Didn't get into it or interested as a little girl like some do now. I was lucky though that my father had no issues with having his daughter work in the garage with him or take apart radios and the like to see how they work and put them back together. In fact, I think he took it as a pride thing that his daughter was interested in learning those things. Also my local schools were a bit more gender neutral when it came to classes. In junior high all students were required to take home-ec in 7th and shop in 8th. In high school there were electives of all kinds and anyone was allowed to take any of them and they didn't push certain ones to certain students. There were guys taking Foods classes, girls in tech classes (though I was the only girl in my auto shop class), it was quite varied. I know that's not how all schools are though.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
I have always thought these events were bordering on the creepiness level we usually assign to child beauty pageants. If they are not gendered and creepy, then I'm sure strong advocates of these things wouldn't blink at a daddy son dance. As this author (http://goodmenproject.com/families/tmb-why-im-against-daddy-daughter-dates/) explains, there's a reason to view this kind of thing as weird.
I'm pretty sure I can dance with my daughter or take out to dinner without wanting to have sex with her. When people like you and the author in your link think it's creepy, YOU are the ones sexualizing children, not the fathers and mothers. So please, stop visualizing fathers having sex with their daughters because they are dancing, you're being creepy and gross.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
I'm pretty sure I can dance with my daughter or take out to dinner without wanting to have sex with her. When people like you and the author in your link think it's creepy, YOU are the ones sexualizing children, not the fathers and mothers. So please, stop visualizing fathers having sex with their daughters because they are dancing, you're being creepy and gross.
:eek: Is that what the article was about? I'm glad I didn't bother with it. That is sick. I would have loved to have danced with my dad as a little girl. He's just never been a dancer and he can't now.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
They didn't do all this STEM stuff when I was growing up. Didn't get into it or interested as a little girl like some do now. I was lucky though that my father had no issues with having his daughter work in the garage with him or take apart radios and the like to see how they work and put them back together. In fact, I think he took it as a pride thing that his daughter was interested in learning those things. Also my local schools were a bit more gender neutral when it came to classes. In junior high all students were required to take home-ec in 7th and shop in 8th. In high school there were electives of all kinds and anyone was allowed to take any of them and they didn't push certain ones to certain students. There were guys taking Foods classes, girls in tech classes (though I was the only girl in my auto shop class), it was quite varied. I know that's not how all schools are though.

Well, perhaps I speak as a "modern gen" but I grew up with this sort of gender neutrality. It's really all I have known, so I don't understand why they would want to have quotas, today. Back in the day, sure. But not today with STEM stuff being practically integral to many places. And that's sort of my point. With the constant erosion of "traditionally rigid gender roles" why not just leave university STEM courses open to anyone, whether they're male female, hermaphrodite, whatever instead of pitting women against men and even women against women. The intentions were and are pure, but it doesn't end up working for the betterment of women in these fields. These quotas are detrimental in the long run, because they allow a sort of undermining of women in STEM to begin with. This saddles the "serious about STEM" women with the added suspicion of being there merely because of a quota and not based on merit and interest, like it should be.
As a feminist/egalitarian/humanist whatever you want to label yourself, we have to address these types of issues as well. Right?
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
:eek: Is that what the article was about? I'm glad I didn't bother with it. That is sick. I would have loved to have danced with my dad as a little girl. He's just never been a dancer and he can't now.
The guy in the article was just trying to say the language used to describe them should be reserved for romantic relationships, but it came off as kind of creepy in my opinion. I mean, if someone can't separate in their mind a romantic dance with someone they hope to have sex with, with a dance with their daughter, the problem isn't the language used to describe the event, they have a screw loose somewhere and should get it checked out before it's not just confined to their imaginations.

Here's a quote:
Because aside from perhaps family weddings, when do you ever get dressed up, buy your date flowers, and go dancing without there being some kind of romantic agenda on the table?
I have a lifetime of iconography, emotions, and baggage that my mind associates with formal dances, so the idea of attending one with my DAUGHTER…yeah, it made me uncomfortable.

If this isn't exaggerated to help his argument, the dude has emotional problems.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
I have always thought these events were bordering on the creepiness level we usually assign to child beauty pageants. If they are not gendered and creepy, then I'm sure strong advocates of these things wouldn't blink at a daddy son dance. As this author (http://goodmenproject.com/families/tmb-why-im-against-daddy-daughter-dates/) explains, there's a reason to view this kind of thing as weird.
It's a very creepy, patriarchal, borderline incestuous ritual, imo. It makes me think of "purity balls" and such. Gross. It's basically sending the message that the father is supposed to prepare the daughter for her husband and that the father basically owns the daughter's sexuality.

I don't think they should be having them at all, regardless of the gender combination. Now, a science and math event? I'm all for it and make it co-ed.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
:eek: Is that what the article was about? I'm glad I didn't bother with it. That is sick. I would have loved to have danced with my dad as a little girl. He's just never been a dancer and he can't now.
The guy is just pointing out the creepy undertones of it, and he's totally right.
 
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Draka

Wonder Woman
It's a very creepy, patriarchal, borderline incestuous ritual, imo. It makes me think of "purity balls" and such. Gross. It's basically sending the message that the father is supposed to prepare the daughter for her husband and that the father basically owns the daughter's sexuality.

I don't think they should be having them at all, regardless of the gender combination. Now, a science and math event? I'm all for it and make it co-ed.
Wow. I have never viewed it like that. I have always thought of it as a sweet bonding thing. A father spending time with his daughter, making memories, and also showing her how a gentleman should treat her. It is just a rite of passage for many. And what of the father dancing with his daughter at her wedding? Why must dancing be relegated to something romantic or sexualized? Professional dancers dance with partners they are just friends with. Brothers and sisters dance together as trained dancers. Dancing is not sexual.
 

Draka

Wonder Woman
He IS the creepy undertone to it. Just because he can't dance with his daughter without wanting to have sex with her doesn't mean daddy/daughter dances are sexual, it means he's a pedophile.
I unfortunately lack the ability to like this more than once.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Wow. I have never viewed it like that. I have always thought of it as a sweet bonding thing. A father spending time with his daughter, making memories, and also showing her how a gentleman should treat her. It is just a rite of passage for many. And what of the father dancing with his daughter at her wedding? Why must dancing be relegated to something romantic or sexualized? Professional dancers dance with partners they are just friends with. Brothers and sisters dance together as trained dancers. Dancing is not sexual.
Of course there's nothing wrong with parents dancing with their children, in general. There's nothing wrong with anyone dancing with anyone, in general. But what I'm looking at is the culture that surrounds these events, and it is rooted in patriarchy and sexism. Yes, the father "giving away" the daughter at a wedding is creepy and sexist, too. It's implying that the daughter (or at least her "purity"/virginity/sexuality) is owned by her father and that she's his property to give away to a man. These "daddy-daughter dances" reinforce that view of the father-daughter relationship. It infantilizes the daughter and both sexualizes the father-daughter relationship and promotes a disturbing power dynamic. In fact, that view of father-daughter relationships is very prevalent in patriarchal societies around the world. You especially see it in strict Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Hindu cultures. In secular Western society, it's waned a bit but it's obviously still influential to an extent.
 
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Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
He IS the creepy undertone to it. Just because he can't dance with his daughter without wanting to have sex with her doesn't mean daddy/daughter dances are sexual, it means he's a pedophile.
No, it just means that he's viewing it from its wider cultural context and not in isolation. Culture is a thing, you know. There are messages being sent and implications.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
No, it just means that he's viewing it from its wider cultural context and not in isolation. Culture is a thing, you know. There are messages being sent and implications.
He's not viewing it in a wider cultural context, he's sexualizing children, and so are you. Parents dancing with their children is not in the same context as dancing with a romantic partner.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
He's not viewing it in a wider cultural context, he's sexualizing children, and so are you. Parents dancing with their children is not in the same context as dancing with a romantic partner.
If you can't see anything disturbing about a teenage (or younger) girl being dolled up like it's prom night and being taken out on a "date" by her dad to slow dance to romantic songs, then I really can't help you and don't have the patience to. There's a difference between that and dancing around the house to pop songs on the radio or whatever. A big difference.
 

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
If you can't see anything disturbing about a teenage (or younger) girl being dolled up like it's prom night and being taken out on a "date" by her dad to slow dance to romantic songs, then I really can't help you and don't have the patience to. There's a difference between that and dancing around the house to pop songs on the radio or whatever. A big difference.
Anything's disturbing if you unnecessarily sexualize it. I don't sexualize children, so I don't see it as creepy or disturbing.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Anything's disturbing if you unnecessarily sexualize it. I don't sexualize children, so I don't see it as creepy or disturbing.
Recognizing the culture surrounding something isn't "unnecessarily sexualizing" it. It's just calling a spade a spade. Let me guess, you don't see child beauty pageants or little girls on stripper poles as having sexual connotations either, right? Because apparently culture doesn't exist and everything exists in a vacuum, to you, apparently.
 
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