Gender specific events

[lewisnotmiller]

He's not viewing it in a wider cultural context, he's sexualizing children, and so are you. Parents dancing with their children is not in the same context as dancing with a romantic partner.

I read the article all prepared to agree with you. I still kinda do, but I don't think he said anything particularly disagreeable in the article. Either the whole Daddy-daughter dance thing is uniquely American, or I'm just oblivious. Both things are possible.
I take my daughters (5 and 7) out on what could loosely be called lunch dates every chance I get, and if I can somehow take one of them out without the other, it's just one of the most pleasurable things in my life. All of a sudden I have all their attention and they have all mine, and we can really bond. It's kinda organic though, despite the effort being made.

There's nothing wrong with a Daddy-daughter dance, to my mind. Nothing at all. But I probably wouldn't attend one unless my daughters dragged me there, and I wouldn't think of it as a date. Dunno why. I'll have to think about it.
I do dance with them both, particularly my older daughter, which is pretty funny, since I rarely dance otherwise.

 

[freethinker44]

Recognizing the culture surrounding something isn't "unnecessarily sexualizing" it. It's just calling a spade a spade. Let me guess, you don't see child beauty pageants or little girls on stripper poles as having sexual connotations either, right? Because apparently culture doesn't exist and everything exists in a vacuum, to you, apparently.

That's a straw man. Child beauty pageants arent even in the same realm as a father/daughter dance. The culture you're associating with this isn't a culture surrounding formal dance's, it's a culture that says anything a man does with any woman is sexual in nature, so not only are sexualizing children, you're also being sexist, because men aren't walking penises that need to screw anything that moves. Sometimes a dance is just a dance.

 

[Draka]

Of course there's nothing wrong with parents dancing with their children, in general. There's nothing wrong with anyone dancing with anyone, in general. But what I'm looking at is the culture that surrounds these events, and it is rooted in patriarchy and sexism. Yes, the father "giving away" the daughter at a wedding is creepy and sexist, too. It's implying that the daughter (or at least her "purity"/virginity/sexuality) is owned by her father and that she's his property to give away to a man. These "daddy-daughter dances" reinforce that view of the father-daughter relationship. It infantilizes the daughter and both sexualizes the father-daughter relationship and promotes a disturbing power dynamic. In fact, that view of father-daughter relationships is very prevalent in patriarchal societies around the world. You especially see it in strict Christian, Jewish, Muslim and Hindu cultures. In secular Western society, it's waned a bit but it's obviously still influential to an extent.

I asked about the father dancing with his daughter at her wedding, not the giving away part (which has actually never happened at any wedding I have been to or officiated).

You know, this sexualizing children over innocent things is just fricken creepy. It's like when the school tells my 7y/o daughter that her tank top is inappropriate because of the skin it shows. That is sexualizing a child. Insinuating that daddy/daughter dances are sexual or romantic in nature is sick and sexualizes little girls far more than the actual sweet little dances do. It takes a sick creepy mind to even go there when watching or hearing about a daddy dancing with his daughter.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's a straw man. Child beauty pageants arent even in the same realm as a father/daughter dance. The culture you're associating with this isn't a culture surrounding formal dance's, it's a culture that says anything a man does with any woman is sexual in nature, so not only are sexualizing children, you're also being sexist, because men aren't walking penises that need to screw anything that moves. Sometimes a dance is just a dance.

You're the one building up straw men here. Nothing I said had anything to do with viewing men as "walking penises that need to screw anything that moves".

 

[freethinker44]

I read the article all prepared to agree with you. I still kinda do, but I don't think he said anything particularly disagreeable in the article. Either the whole Daddy-daughter dance thing is uniquely American, or I'm just oblivious. Both things are possible.
I take my daughters (5 and 7) out on what could loosely be called lunch dates every chance I get, and if I can somehow take one of them out without the other, it's just one of the most pleasurable things in my life. All of a sudden I have all their attention and they have all mine, and we can really bond. It's kinda organic though, despite the effort being made.

There's nothing wrong with a Daddy-daughter dance, to my mind. Nothing at all. But I probably wouldn't attend one unless my daughters dragged me there, and I wouldn't think of it as a date. Dunno why. I'll have to think about it.
I do dance with them both, particularly my older daughter, which is pretty funny, since I rarely dance otherwise.

Pretty much how I feel too.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I asked about the father dancing with his daughter at her wedding, not the giving away part (which has actually never happened at any wedding I have been to or officiated).

You know, this sexualizing children over innocent things is just fricken creepy. It's like when the school tells my 7y/o daughter that her tank top is inappropriate because of the skin it shows. That is sexualizing a child. Insinuating that daddy/daughter dances are sexual or romantic in nature is sick and sexualizes little girls far more than the actual sweet little dances do. It takes a sick creepy mind to even go there when watching or hearing about a daddy dancing with his daughter.

For the last time: people dancing with each other, in of itself, is neutral. It's the culture that surrounds the specific thing that makes it one thing or another.

 

[freethinker44]

You're the one building up straw men here. Nothing I said had anything to do with viewing men as "walking penises that need to screw anything that moves".

That's the culture you're applying here though. That's why you think it's disturbing for a father to go to a formal dance with his daughter, right? That sexist culture that says men spend every waking moment trying to get sex. Also probably a little bit of the same sexism that says fathers aren't really parents, they're babysitters when mom's busy. So you see a father/daughter dance and you don't see a parent having at an innocent event with their child, you see a sexual predator trying to date a child. I could be wrong, but I'm willing to bet if we had a socratic discussion here it would inevitably lead here.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's the culture you're applying here though. That's why you think it's disturbing for a father to go to a formal dance with his daughter, right? That sexist culture that says men spend every waking moment trying to get sex. Also probably a little bit of the same sexism that says fathers aren't really parents, they're babysitters when mom's busy. So you see a father/daughter dance and you don't see a parent having at an innocent event with their child, you see a sexual predator trying to date a child. I could be wrong, but I'm willing to bet if we had a socratic discussion here it would inevitably lead here.

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that it's a manifestation of a patriarchal and sexist cultural view of girls and their fathers. Your imagination is just running wild and seeing things that aren't there. I take it that social studies aren't your strong suit?

 

[freethinker44]

That's not what I'm saying at all. What I'm saying is that it's a manifestation of a patriarchal and sexist cultural view of girls and their fathers. Your imagination is just running wild and seeing things that aren't there. I take it that social studies aren't your strong suit?

I believe "incestuous ritual" was the phrase you used, and you agreed with that article linked he was totally sexualizing them, so yeah, that's exactly what you were saying.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I believe "incestuous ritual" was the phrase you used, and you agreed with that article linked he was totally sexualizing them, so yeah, that's exactly what you were saying.

You believe whatever nonsense you want to believe. I'm done with the subject.

 

[gsa]

That's the culture you're applying here though. That's why you think it's disturbing for a father to go to a formal dance with his daughter, right? That sexist culture that says men spend every waking moment trying to get sex. Also probably a little bit of the same sexism that says fathers aren't really parents, they're babysitters when mom's busy. So you see a father/daughter dance and you don't see a parent having at an innocent event with their child, you see a sexual predator trying to date a child. I could be wrong, but I'm willing to bet if we had a socratic discussion here it would inevitably lead here.

You write this in a vacuum, totally divorced from the actual culture of "daddy daughter dances" that replicate *romantic* rites of passage for American teenagers. I am not talking about dancing at a wedding, for all of the loaded patriarchy symbolism that crap mirrors it is nothing like daddy daughter dances as events. They're often held on Valentine's Day.

No one is suggesting that fathers and daughters shouldn't bond; of course they should. When I was growing up I went out regularly with my dad to movies and sporting events, but if we had called them dates and dressed in matching tuxes and rented a limo, I suspect most people would find that strange. And they would have found it no less strange if I was doing that with my mother. Of course I don't think that these people are sexual predators trying to rape their children. I don't think that the pageant people are doing that either. I think that the events are weird and creepy nevertheless, even if they're beloved by otherwise normal people.

 

[freethinker44]

You believe whatever nonsense you want to believe. I'm done with the subject.

Don't get upset at me, they're your words, I just don't forget them.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Don't get upset at me, they're your words, I just don't forget them.

No, you're completely misconstruing what I'm saying and basically lying about my viewpoint. I give up on you. But those who are more level-headed can understand what I'm saying.

 

[freethinker44]

You write this in a vacuum, totally divorced from the actual culture of "daddy daughter dances" that replicate *romantic* rites of passage for American teenagers. I am not talking about dancing at a wedding, for all of the loaded patriarchy symbolism that crap mirrors it is nothing like daddy daughter dances as events. They're often held on Valentine's Day.

No one is suggesting that fathers and daughters shouldn't bond; of course they should. When I was growing up I went out regularly with my dad to movies and sporting events, but if we had called them dates and dressed in matching tuxes and rented a limo, I suspect most people would find that strange. And they would have found it no less strange if I was doing that with my mother. Of course I don't think that these people are sexual predators trying to rape their children. I don't think that the pageant people are doing that either. I think that the events are weird and creepy nevertheless, even if they're beloved by otherwise normal people.

But on some level, you kind of do think that. That's why it's disturbing to you. You're the one attaching the romantic element to it, not the parents or the children. You can't separate the romantic element from the event and instead of seeing a father and daughter innocently bonding, you are sexualizing it.

Who cares if it happens around Valentine's day, my kids give out cards to every boy and girl in their class, and the teachers on Valentine's day. Does that mean they want to have sex with every man, woman, and child in their class? No, because it's not sexualized.

The parents and children and the schools/promoters aren't sexualizing this, you are. You realize that, right? It's disturbing to you because you're sexualizing it.

 

[freethinker44]

No, you're completely misconstruing what I'm saying and basically lying about my viewpoint. I give up on you. But those who are more level-headed can understand what I'm saying.

"Incestuous ritual", again, your words, not mine. Do you not know what incest means? How can I construe that in any way other than a sexual relationship between a father and daughter. You call a father/daughter dance an incestuous ritual. Even if you weren't saying they are like sexual predators going after their children, I'm certainly not wrong for interpreting it that way. I mean, how many ways can you interpret "incestuous ritual" that don't involve sexual predators. You weren't saying the little girls are the sexual predators, were you?

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

Everything is a god, even a social construct or ideology. Doesn't mean I can't want that social construct to die a horrible death in human cultures. Basically, I want people judging other people and prescribing roles based on superficialities to die a horrible death in general, wether it's sexism, racism, or whatever.

Why call it gods if its just a concept? I think a concept is a concept not a god.

bath with candles burning after I get done weight lifting

Im curious right now. How much do you lift? What weights do you use, lets say, for biceps and bench-pressing? I also think that nowadays women can do alot of the traditional "male" jobs because there is nothing required that men could do better. in the past however men needed to do the extra hard weights lifting and using force to screw/unscrew things. nowadays machines do that all for us, so the extra strength in males is just being wasted away. same with army soldiers, nowadays people kill eachother with assault rifles that even children can use but in the past people slaugthered each other with machetes, spears and swords, which required the strength of men to be effecient and average women were excluded.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The whole socially acceptable thing changes country by country.
Not long ago Balls were common in the Uk, they were always by invitation. They were social events, It was certainly an occasion when fathers might dance with a daughter especially the first time she was invited along with the parents. Balls still happen but are even more select.

To day children do not care to go to dances with their parents.

The other Difference that has come up in this thread is STEM subjects. Again in the Uk Girls attain higher grades in all subjects including STEM ones than do boys. However when it comes to careers, fewer girls follow those paths in university, but those that do, do exceptionally well.
A female brain may differ to a male one, but it clearly brings advantages to the table, that more than make up for those differences what ever they may or may not be.

Women are not less able than men in any field, however they have every right to excercise a choice to whether to enter a field or not.

 

[Draka]

Im curious right now. How much do you lift?

Even though I know you seem to want to turn everything into some kind of competition where you can brag about male superiority and how much you can lift, blah blah blah, I'll answer this.

I honestly haven't weight lifted in quite a long time although I use to quite a bit. I haven't due to to medical issues I have been having the past few years. Issues that have actually led up to the state I'm in now (recovering from surgery with complications). I really don't remember how much I lifted for many different lifts now. I didn't make it a competition with myself, just kept trying to sculpt. The one number that does stick with me all these years is 330lbs. The only reason that number even rings a bell was because it was my leg lift rep weight when I was 16 and the guys in the gym made a huge deal about it trying to lift it too. Only one could and he couldn't rep it.

Fwiw, I use to get into arm wrestling competitions when I was in the Navy and won a lot. Against male Marines actually. Women can be strong. Can be just as strong as a man. We may have to work a bit harder for it as we don't have mounds of testosterone like men do (and that really is what it boils down to), but we can. Also some men aren't even that strong anyway. We're talking ease of potential here is all. A man may have an easier time getting strong but doesn't mean he will bother. A woman may have a harder time, but doesn't mean she can't, and if she does then she may well be stronger than most men she knows.

If a strong woman and an average man both apply for a physically strenuous job then wouldn't the common sense hire be the woman?

 

[HonestJoe]

Why do you think no one said anything about the first event?

A dance is entertainment, science and maths are core subjects. Maybe people thought that it doesn’t really matter if children don’t take an interest in formal dance specifically where it does matter if they don’t take an interest in maths and science.

Also, the history and tradition of father-daughter dances could have put anyone who objected in fear of aggressive reactions to any complaints and people may not have considered the inconsistency until the new gender specific event brought it to the fore.

Should public schools be allowed to have any gender specific events?

I’m not sure about “not allowed” but I don’t think it’s really a good thing, especially where the gender specification covers parents as well as students. That said, I doubt it’d be the end of the world if they continued the father-daughter dance tradition and left it at that, though they’d open themselves to potential objections that could be difficult to address.

 

[Princeps Eugenius]

Even though I know you seem to want to turn everything into some kind of competition where you can brag about male superiority and how much you can lift, blah blah blah, I'll answer this.

I honestly haven't weight lifted in quite a long time although I use to quite a bit. I haven't due to to medical issues I have been having the past few years. Issues that have actually led up to the state I'm in now (recovering from surgery with complications). I really don't remember how much I lifted for many different lifts now. I didn't make it a competition with myself, just kept trying to sculpt. The one number that does stick with me all these years is 330lbs. The only reason that number even rings a bell was because it was my leg lift rep weight when I was 16 and the guys in the gym made a huge deal about it trying to lift it too. Only one could and he couldn't rep it.

Fwiw, I use to get into arm wrestling competitions when I was in the Navy and won a lot. Against male Marines actually. Women can be strong. Can be just as strong as a man. We may have to work a bit harder for it as we don't have mounds of testosterone like men do (and that really is what it boils down to), but we can. Also some men aren't even that strong anyway. We're talking ease of potential here is all. A man may have an easier time getting strong but doesn't mean he will bother. A woman may have a harder time, but doesn't mean she can't, and if she does then she may well be stronger than most men she knows.

If a strong woman and an average man both apply for a physically strenuous job then wouldn't the common sense hire be the woman?

legs lifting was not asked for. ive also known many other women at the gym who lifted alot @ the the leg lifting machine but that weigth is not really at issue. i dont think i could do the 330lbs but with enough training i can imagine myself doing something of that nature. although i believe youre bsing me anyway. 330lbs, a 16 year old teenager? yeah... im more curious what you can accomplish at the bench press or biceps dumbbell lifting. thats the point a woman has to work hard while a man doesnt. when a man works hard he outperforms the women, even those who work as hard as the man.