Genesis 2

[outhouse]

'You versus the world' .....I like that.

And as you wave your banner of historosity...the world goes on believing.

Why is that???????????????????????????????????

because reality, reason and education and knowledge, are not faith.

 

[outhouse]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Sinful actions are also throughout the whole world.
You know what? 2Tim.3;13 States, "But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. "
That type of "education" I do not need.



Hi Outhouse,Those Scriptures you scorn/deride say those who will let themselves be deceived will be deceived----And those who will heed the warnings contained therein---will "come out of her"/refuse to partake of her false beliefs.

The "magical answers" are found in the pages of the Book your posts mock.

Those Scriptures tell of "Remnant" of believers----not "the whole" of the world.

I do not mock the book, nor do I scorn or deride.


But that does apply to your personal interpretation.


Quit dancing and start answering


So the whole world is wrong???????????????


And you magically have all the real answers why every major educated civilization is in serious error??????????

I cant believe you think the whole world is trying to deceive you , WHO do you think you are to denounce ALL modern education?????????????

 

[sincerly]

More importantly, you have failed to produce any "objectively-derived evidence" that supports all that is seen and tangibly experienced to be from "nothing."

Yo sincerly, Let me repeat again, the concept of evolution does not intrinsically involve life coming from non-life as that is only one hypothesis. What you are continually doing is to link that hypothesis to the ToE whereas it is not intrinsic.

Hi Metis, The theory of evolution has to be examined in all it parts(theories) just as all things are. A theory by itself apart from other integrated components ceases to be complete.
Life, upon this planet,(plant and animal) is a part of the planet. The subject of this discussion is Biblical--Genesis 2 which was predicated upon Gensis1 the Creation of this planet(earth) and all that is upon it.
The Scriptures(Bible)clearly reveal that a Creator GOD produced it.
Some of mankind upon this earth declares that the earth and all one sees was the occurrence from a "big-bang"(out of/from nothing) and a lot of time to produce "all that is seen."
(Example)Are those "foundations" one finds intrinsic of a previous civilization or just happenstance rock formations---with a few tossed away artifacts?

That is your opinion that the Creator GOD does Not exist. The Characteristics are recorded in that Book you denounce and your "forefathers" witnessed as fact.

I did not denounce "God" nor the Bible. so you simply are not telling the truth here.

Metis, at the top of your post and at the bottom of this post you acknowledge that you are non-theist JuBu that is a denouncement of "GOD". And by extension, since you don't believe GOD, then that which GOD declared to the Prophets is in the same opinion.

MY GOD didn't start something into motion and leave it to "mutate/evolve" into a more complex entity.

MY GOD didn't start something into motion and leave it to "mutate/evolve" into a more complex entity.

How could you possibly know that?

Scripturally and observation(seed time and harvest; days and years; the continual orbiting of the "signs").

That is contrary to natural science----which "decays"/"destructs".

So, even before you were born, you were decaying and destructing? The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics does not apply to segments but only to the whole of the universe. Therefore, the ToE in no way is contradicted by it.

Are you implying that wood doesn't rot; my roof will not need replacing; etc.?
BTW, since all evolved to a betterment (mudhole to Humans), why aren't there new "creatures being produced"? 60,000 + years?---and this old body needs some new parts?

Much is "written" which isn't truth, but can depict truth as an allegory---and there is outright "fiction".

"Allegory" is not the same as "fiction".

Didn't say it was.

Because you do not accept the truth of life's beginning, doesn't negate the truth of when and how life began(added---ON Earth).

We don't know the "truth of life's beginning" because we in science don't blindly accept any premise. Theists tend to do so, but we can't.

"We" is placing your opinion along with those who state life on this planet began 4.8 million years ago an humans ranged from 500,000 to 30,000(when the "ancestral" ceased and "modern man began".)
Somebody does.
Yes, Theist used the Scriptures and history to project the "In the beginning".

Really??? The genus and species determines the "kinds". Mutations occur when the DNA is altered at a specific location---but that doesn't change the "family" to which the plant or animal originally belonged.

Given enough time as we have seen for ourselves through the fossil record, it is obvious that the "family" can evolve as well.

Are you referring to those various skeletons lined up/following one another out of the mud -hole? There is no record of a "missing-link".
An amoeba begets and amoeba and a human begets a human.

Originally Posted by metis
Sincerly, you are being misled by your church, and you will remain being snookered as long as you are not willing to look outside of that box. I know as I was in there too when I was younger. One simply does not have to abandon their belief in "God" or the "Gods" simply because they accept the general premise of evolution.

What I am comprehending from that admonition is GOD IS A LIAR---and it is O.K. to be deceived by false opinions of mankind's mis-belief in the Creator GOD.
GOD either is the Creator GOD or HE is a MYTH. We each have that Choice.

Where did I say or imply "God is a liar", especially since I'm non-theistic?

Sincerly, you have continued to make false accusations against myself and some others here, which is a violation of one of the Ten Commandments (bearing false witness). Please do not accuse somebody of something unless you know with certainty that they have indeed made such statements. One simply cannot supposedly defend scripture by violating it.

Shalom

See my quotes; There are those who "declare themselves mortally affronted".
I don't Accuse falsely, but I do post Scripture which is contrary to the stated opinions of others who are contrary to the position of the Scriptures.(and this is a debate forum).

 

[sincerly]

I do not mock the book, nor do I scorn or deride.


But that does apply to your personal interpretation.

Your posted:"Nonsense" fulfills the definition.

Quit dancing and start answering

So the whole world is wrong???????????????

And you magically have all the real answers why every major educated civilization is in serious error??????????

I cant believe you think the whole world is trying to deceive you , WHO do you think you are to denounce ALL modern education?????????????

No dancing and because you reject the answers doesn't mean they were not answered.

AGAIN: Hi Outhouse,Those Scriptures you scorn/deride say those who will let themselves be deceived will be deceived----And those who the warnings contained therein---will "come out of her"/refuse to partake of her false beliefs.
will heed
The "magical answers" are found in the pages of the Book your posts mock.

Those Scriptures tell of "Remnant" of believers----not "the whole" of the world.

 

[metis]

Hi Metis, The theory of evolution has to be examined in all it parts(theories) just as all things are. A theory by itself apart from other integrated components ceases to be complete.

But the ToE is not singular, and this is quite possibly where the disconnect is. There are myriads of hypotheses found as part of the ToE, but a hypothesis is not a belief but is more an idea that hasn't been confirmed, thus could be either correct, erroneous, or a bit of both. The hypothesis that all life may have emerged from "the mud" you mention later is only one hypothesis of many, and we have no way to prove or disprove it.

The Scriptures(Bible)clearly reveal that a Creator GOD produced it.

But it really doesn't say how, and sages even before we knew anything about evolution realized that the creation accounts may well be allegory.

Metis, at the top of your post and at the bottom of this post you acknowledge that you are non-theist JuBu that is a denouncement of "GOD".

Here's a couple of definitions of "denounce":
1.to condemn or censure openly or publicly: to denounce a politician as morally corrupt.
2.to make a formal accusation against, as to the police or in a court.

Therefore, not knowing if there is a "God" or not is not a "denouncement", and being a "non-theist" is not the same as being an "atheist".

MY GOD didn't start something into motion and leave it to "mutate/evolve" into a more complex entity.

Again, this is virtually impossible for you to know that with any certainty-- "belief" is not necessarily "fact".

Are you implying that wood doesn't rot; my roof will not need replacing; etc.?
BTW, since all evolved to a betterment (mudhole to Humans), why aren't there new "creatures being produced"? 60,000 + years?---and this old body needs some new parts?

How did the wood get to become wood? Secondly, the concept of "mudhole to Humans" is not implicit in the ToE as I have previously stated.

"We" is placing your opinion along with those who state life on this planet began 4.8 million years ago an humans ranged from 500,000 to 30,000(when the "ancestral" ceased and "modern man began".)

Science is based on objective evidence, but religion is based on faith without the necessity of even one shred of objective evidence. Again, to repeat something I posted to you before, you have not provided even one shred of objective evidence that Goddidit, and yet you keep on falsely stating various "scientific" positions that are not correct at all.

Yes, Theist used the Scriptures and history to project the "In the beginning".

Which is in no way objective.

Are you referring to those various skeletons lined up/following one another out of the mud -hole? There is no record of a "missing-link".

All life forms are "links" since evolution never stops, it appears, and the issue of "missing" is rather unclear as to what you're referring to. Do you mean "transitional forms"? We have myriads of those, and you and I are also transitional forms unless humanity goes extinct right after us.

See my quotes; There are those who "declare themselves mortally affronted".
I don't Accuse falsely, but I do post Scripture which is contrary to the stated opinions of others who are contrary to the position of the Scriptures.(and this is a debate forum).

You have falsely accused me on several occasions if you check back through the last several posts, and my patience with you is growing much thinner. If you cannot for some reason see how you have falsely accused me, then there simply is no reason for me to continue this discussion. You have jumped to unwarranted conclusions about where I'm coming from, and that is truly wrong to do. Therefore, whether any discussion between us is to continue, this will largely depend on what you do or don't do.

Shalom

 

[outhouse]

Your posted:"Nonsense" fulfills the definition.




No dancing and because you reject the answers doesn't mean they were not answered.

AGAIN: Hi Outhouse,Those Scriptures you scorn/deride say those who will let themselves be deceived will be deceived----And those who the warnings contained therein---will "come out of her"/refuse to partake of her false beliefs.
will heed
The "magical answers" are found in the pages of the Book your posts mock.

Those Scriptures tell of "Remnant" of believers----not "the whole" of the world.

Quit dancing and start answering, those are not answers they are pretty lousy excuses.

#1 So the whole world is wrong???????????????

#2 And you magically have all the real answers why every major educated civilization is in serious error??????????

#3 I cant believe you think the whole world is trying to deceive you , WHO do you think you are to denounce ALL modern education?????????????

 

[outhouse]

No credible scholar is even looking for evidence towards any exodus.

There are no credible dates given for any exodus.

According to Finkelstein it is factual that the Israelites slowly developed from displace Canaanites that filled the highlands after 1200 BC.


It is factual that there was no mass exodus, and that the villages in the highlands grew over a 200 year period.


These proto Israelites worshiped Canaanite deities ONLY and showed no real cultural traits of their own until after 1000 BC

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Your posted:"Nonsense" fulfills the definition.




No dancing and because you reject the answers doesn't mean they were not answered.

AGAIN: Hi Outhouse,Those Scriptures you scorn/deride say those who will let themselves be deceived will be deceived----And those who the warnings contained therein---will "come out of her"/refuse to partake of her false beliefs.
will heed
The "magical answers" are found in the pages of the Book your posts mock.

Those Scriptures tell of "Remnant" of believers----not "the whole" of the world.

What is your degree of education if I may ask Sincerely?

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Metis, The theory of evolution has to be examined in all it parts(theories) just as all things are. A theory by itself apart from other integrated components ceases to be complete.

But the ToE is not singular, and this is quite possibly where the disconnect is. There are myriads of hypotheses found as part of the ToE, but a hypothesis is not a belief but is more an idea that hasn't been confirmed, thus could be either correct, erroneous, or a bit of both. The hypothesis that all life may have emerged from "the mud" you mention later is only one hypothesis of many, and we have no way to prove or disprove it.

Hi Metis, there are those on these threads that disagree with your above. All of the ToE is claimed to be proven fact. You and I disagree on some specifics.

Originally Posted by sincerly The Scriptures(Bible)clearly reveal that a Creator GOD produced it.

But it really doesn't say how, and sages even before we knew anything about evolution realized that the creation accounts may well be allegory.

What "sages"----certainly not the Prophets of GOD.

Originally Posted by sincerly Metis, at the top of your post and at the bottom of this post you acknowledge that you are non-theist JuBu that is a denouncement of "GOD".

Here's a couple of definitions of "denounce":
1.to condemn or censure openly or publicly: to denounce a politician as morally corrupt.
2.to make a formal accusation against, as to the police or in a court.

Therefore, not knowing if there is a "God" or not is not a "denouncement", and being a "non-theist" is not the same as being an "atheist".

3. there is, also, To give notice/termination---no longer a theist(believer in the Creator GOD--as a Jew.)

4. inform/reveal---intentions/actions (that was your decision.)

Originally Posted by sincerly MY GOD didn't start something into motion and leave it to "mutate/evolve" into a more complex entity.

Again, this is virtually impossible for you to know that with any certainty-- "belief" is not necessarily "fact".

Metris, those Scriptures which I acknowledge as revealed facts declared the Creation of all things as "very Good"/completed to the point of "ceasing" to do more. Not needing lots of time to "evolve" into myrids of things not created by GOD.


Originally Posted by sincerly Are you implying that wood doesn't rot; my roof will not need replacing; etc.?
BTW, since all evolved to a betterment (mudhole to Humans), why aren't there new "creatures being produced"? 60,000 + years?---and this old body needs some new parts?

How did the wood get to become wood? Secondly, the concept of "mudhole to Humans" is not implicit in the ToE as I have previously stated.

Simply by the nature of the plant that was Created.(Trees vs. herbs)---some produce fruit---others are to be eaten.
Metis, the ToE begins with the "big bang" expands to the premoidal soup and the spontaneous formation of live organism which spontaneously "evolve" into all the plant and animal life seen today. Therefore, yes, the ToE is implicit in its concept of the beginnings of Mankind and contrary to the Scriptures GOD declared "Speaking and it stood fast".

Originally Posted by sincerly "We" is placing your opinion along with those who state life on this planet began 4.8 million years ago an humans ranged from 500,000 to 30,000(when the "ancestral" ceased and "modern man began".)

Science is based on objective evidence, but religion is based on faith without the necessity of even one shred of objective evidence. Again, to repeat something I posted to you before, you have not provided even one shred of objective evidence that Goddidit, and yet you keep on falsely stating various "scientific" positions that are not correct at all.

Metis, are you waffling? Your first statement above contained:"""The hypothesis that all life may have emerged from "the mud" you mention later is only one hypothesis of many, and we have no way to prove or disprove it.[/quote]
So where are those "shreds of evidence " which admittedly can't be proven???

(Originally Posted by sincerly)Yes, Theist used the Scriptures and history to project the "In the beginning".

Which is in no way objective.

The Scriptures give the ages of persons who have lived and that combined with the ancient writings of known civilizations(hindsight) give a more accurate understanding than the assumptions of just excavation and opinions.


(Originally Posted by sincerly)Are you referring to those various skeletons lined up/following one another out of the mud -hole? There is no record of a "missing-link".

All life forms are "links" since evolution never stops, it appears, and the issue of "missing" is rather unclear as to what you're referring to. Do you mean "transitional forms"? We have myriads of those, and you and I are also transitional forms unless humanity goes extinct right after us.

Mutations are seen, but if evolution was real, then ONE would be seeing many strange things in both "kingdoms".

(Originally Posted by sincerly)See my quotes; There are those who "declare themselves mortally affronted".
I don't Accuse falsely, but I do post Scripture which is contrary to the stated opinions of others who are contrary to the position of the Scriptures.(and this is a debate forum).

You have falsely accused me on several occasions if you check back through the last several posts, and my patience with you is growing much thinner. If you cannot for some reason see how you have falsely accused me, then there simply is no reason for me to continue this discussion. You have jumped to unwarranted conclusions about where I'm coming from, and that is truly wrong to do. Therefore, whether any discussion between us is to continue, this will largely depend on what you do or don't do.

Shalom

As stated above, I cannot agree with your accessments of the Scriptural revelations and if that offends you---so be it. I will not denounce my own understandings/Beliefs. Therefore. Peace/Shalom.

 

[sincerly]

What is your degree of education if I may ask Sincerely?

Hi FM, I don't see that as being a requirement for debating. Sorry.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Hi FM, I don't see that as being a requirement for debating. Sorry.

It isn't, but it would give a level of understanding what exactly you have learned about any particular field and your expertise. There are some people who believe in things because they are ignorant of the information and then there are those who know the information but willfully choose to not believe them.

So I wanted to know if you were into engineering, biology, history, archaeology or any of the other sciences?

 

[Thief]

because reality, reason and education and knowledge, are not faith.

Ahhhh....you stepped on a line drawn.
Allow me to redraw it.

Blind faith needs no proving and Webster's makes no distinction.
Faith needs no proving.

But it is my education, knowledge and reason that led me to believe this reality is a creation....
and God did it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

But it is my education, knowledge and reason that led me to believe this reality is a creation....
and God did it.

So the credibility of the belief is a function of the quality of the education, the knowledge, and the capacity to reason. I suspect that this is generally true for all of us.

 

[Muffled]

Quit dancing and start answering, those are not answers they are pretty lousy excuses.

#1 So the whole world is wrong??????????????? Yes. Absurdity can be taught.

#2 And you magically have all the real answers why every major educated civilization is in serious error?????????? There is no magic. We have better information.

#3 I cant believe you think the whole world is trying to deceive you , WHO do you think you are to denounce ALL modern education?????????????

Who is denouncing all modern education? People teach what they want to teach out of their beliefs whether those beliefs are valid or not. I can accept mathematics since it is an observable funtion of life. However even Math. has real and imaginary numbers.

 

[Muffled]

It isn't, but it would give a level of understanding what exactly you have learned about any particular field and your expertise. There are some people who believe in things because they are ignorant of the information and then there are those who know the information but willfully choose to not believe them.

So I wanted to know if you were into engineering, biology, history, archaeology or any of the other sciences?

I studied Electrical Engineering with an Electronics option. My major is Mangament Information Systems.

Because I am old I didn't encounter Darwinian theory until taking Antrhropology. I have seen various articles in Natl. Geographic. I noticed that recently the scientific community found out it was wrong about what they previously believed. Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

 

[metis]

All of the ToE is claimed to be proven fact.

That is absolutely false, and I taught the subject for roughly 30 years, so I should pretty much have an idea of where we are coming from on this. Again, to repeat, there are multiple components to the ToE, some of which have been firmly established but a great many (probably most) that haven't. The mistake you continually make is to try the entire ToE as if it were monolithic, but it's simply not.

BTW, since all evolved to a betterment (mudhole to Humans), why aren't there new "creatures being produced"? 60,000 + years?---and this old body needs some new parts?

Actually new creatures are being produced since everything appears to be continually evolving, therefore new "creatures".

Metis, the ToE begins with the "big bang" expands to the premoidal soup and the spontaneous formation of live organism which spontaneously "evolve" into all the plant and animal life seen today. Therefore, yes, the ToE is implicit in its concept of the beginnings of Mankind and contrary to the Scriptures GOD declared "Speaking and it stood fast".

The ToE has literally nothing to do with the BB, although some of the general process does apply in the sense that all things seemingly change over time. Again, the problem you have is that you are including things in the ToE that simply are not there or are not intrinsic with it.

[my statement]The hypothesis that all life may have emerged from "the mud" you mention later is only one hypothesis of many, and we have no way to prove or disprove it.[end]
So where are those "shreds of evidence " which admittedly can't be proven???

The general process is clearly visible in so many different ways but you won't be able to see it if you don't look.

Mutations are seen, but if evolution was real, then ONE would be seeing many strange things in both "kingdoms".

And the fossil record clearly shows that this has indeed been the case.

I don't Accuse falsely, but I do post Scripture which is contrary to the stated opinions of others who are contrary to the position of the Scriptures.(and this is a debate forum)...
As stated above, I cannot agree with your accessments of the Scriptural revelations and if that offends you---so be it. I will not denounce my own understandings/Beliefs. Therefore. Peace/Shalom.

Again, you are misrepresenting where I'm coming from as I have not stated in any of my posts that scripture is wrong. What I have stated, and continue to state, is that you are taking one interpretation of the creation accounts and refusing to even admit that there are other ways to interpret these same accounts. Anyone who has ever been in Bible studies well knows that two well-versed people can have different interpretations. Every Saturday morning I'm in Torah study, and even those of us of the same faith sometimes have differences of opinion as to how a verse or narrative may be rendered.

Judaism tends to operate out of this general principle: if an interpretation defies reason, go with reason and look for alternative interpretations. Therefore, the vast majority of us don't have a problem with science or evolution. Neither do most Christian theologians have a problem with it.

Shalom

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I studied Electrical Engineering with an Electronics option. My major is Mangament Information Systems.

Because I am old I didn't encounter Darwinian theory until taking Antrhropology. I have seen various articles in Natl. Geographic. I noticed that recently the scientific community found out it was wrong about what they previously believed. Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

Forgive me if I am wrong, isn't that the point of science? The adage "Science Marches On" is a reflection of that. The goal isn't for science to be 100% right from the get go, you have to study, examine and if something is found wrong ideally you would want to have it corrected. The human factor at the end won't play a role in it. The competition that people also strive for in accomplishing what they can also helps I believe in ensuring that if someone is wrong, someone out there is going to prove it.

Think of it as a race, Darwin started running, but he hit a runners wall, luckily though he was at a point where the next person running could pick up the baton and keep going. Thing about it like this, Darwin published his book in 1859 and 6 to 7 years later Mendel publishes his book on inheritance which is initially rejected until the 1900's. If Darwin had been completely wrong, Mendels' work would have essentially destroyed the theory, instead it supplemented it and vice versa. But as time marches on, whatever they had wrong was examined and put to the test and rejected, but simply because parts were wrong doesn't mean the whole thing was wrong. You don't tear down your house because a piece of siding falls of you replace it.

 

[Avi1001]

Metis, good thoughts on the BB and the ToE. It seems to me that they are linked, because after the BB put all the atoms and chemical species into the universe, and these atoms and chemical functional groups self assembled, this led to the development of species through the ToE.

I enjoy your thoughts on how these ideas are all interconnected.

That is absolutely false, and I taught the subject for roughly 30 years, so I should pretty much have an idea of where we are coming from on this. Again, to repeat, there are multiple components to the ToE, some of which have been firmly established but a great many (probably most) that haven't. The mistake you continually make is to try the entire ToE as if it were monolithic, but it's simply not.



Actually new creatures are being produced since everything appears to be continually evolving, therefore new "creatures".



The ToE has literally nothing to do with the BB, although some of the general process does apply in the sense that all things seemingly change over time. Again, the problem you have is that you are including things in the ToE that simply are not there or are not intrinsic with it.



The general process is clearly visible in so many different ways but you won't be able to see it if you don't look.



And the fossil record clearly shows that this has indeed been the case.



Again, you are misrepresenting where I'm coming from as I have not stated in any of my posts that scripture is wrong. What I have stated, and continue to state, is that you are taking one interpretation of the creation accounts and refusing to even admit that there are other ways to interpret these same accounts. Anyone who has ever been in Bible studies well knows that two well-versed people can have different interpretations. Every Saturday morning I'm in Torah study, and even those of us of the same faith sometimes have differences of opinion as to how a verse or narrative may be rendered.

Judaism tends to operate out of this general principle: if an interpretation defies reason, go with reason and look for alternative interpretations. Therefore, the vast majority of us don't have a problem with science or evolution. Neither do most Christian theologians have a problem with it.

Shalom

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Metis, good thoughts on the BB and the ToE. It seems to me that they are linked, because after the BB put all the atoms and chemical species into the universe, and these atoms and chemical functional groups self assembled, this led to the development of species through the ToE.

I enjoy your thoughts on how these ideas are all interconnected.

There is a link in the sense that the BB "started everything" however the TOE is that "changes in characteristics are inherited in successive generations" to put it as simply as possible. This done by mutations, natural selection, genetic drift and a variety of other factors. All the TOE requires on earth (no idea if it would work the same with organisms that are significantly different than us maybe they had it easier *shrug*) is that there is life, how life got there is inconsequential to the theory itself. It isn't however to those who are seeking to move the goal post I guess you can say.

 

[metis]

Metis, good thoughts on the BB and the ToE. It seems to me that they are linked, because after the BB put all the atoms and chemical species into the universe, and these atoms and chemical functional groups self assembled, this led to the development of species through the ToE.

I enjoy your thoughts on how these ideas are all interconnected.

Thanks, Avi.

We have no ability to determine if life evolved from non-life at this time, although that I do believe is a real possibility based on what we now know about what are called "replicating molecules"-- iow, molecules that tend to split along even lines, much like a crystal might. Why this is important is that it may help explain how reproduction may have started. However, notice the word "may".

But even if life came from non-life, this certainly does not in any way discount the possibility of a theistic cause to our universe.

Shabbat shalom