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Genesis 3:16

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Man to rule over woman. How is this not sexist?
Getting back to the original question......

Genesis 2:15-24 (CJB) "Adonai, God, took the person and put him in the garden of ‘Eden to cultivate and care for it. Adonai, God, gave the person this order: “You may freely eat from every tree in the garden except the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. You are not to eat from it, because on the day that you eat from it, it will become certain that you will die.” Adonai, God, said, “It isn’t good that the person should be alone. I will make for him a companion suitable for helping him.” So from the ground Adonai, God, formed every wild animal and every bird that flies in the air, and he brought them to the person to see what he would call them. Whatever the person would call each living creature, that was to be its name. S: iii So the person gave names to all the livestock, to the birds in the air and to every wild animal. But for Adam there was not found a companion suitable for helping him. Then God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the person; and while he was sleeping, he took one of his ribs and closed up the place from which he took it with flesh. The rib which Adonai, God, had taken from the person, he made a woman-person; and he brought her to the man-person. The man-person said, “At last! This is bone from my bones and flesh from my flesh. She is to be called Woman , because she was taken out of Man .” This is why a man is to leave his father and mother and stick with his wife, and they are to be one flesh."

The woman was to be a 'companion and helper' for her husband. The roles that God ordained for each person in the family unit was designed to create harmony and fulfilment, not rivalry and strife.

"Genesis 3:16-19 "To the woman he said, “I will greatly increase your pain in childbirth. You will bring forth children in pain. Your desire will be toward your husband, but he will rule over you.” To Adam he said, “Because you listened to what your wife said and ate from the tree about which I gave you the order, ‘You are not to eat from it,’ the ground is cursed on your account; you will work hard to eat from it as long as you live. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat field plants. You will eat bread by the sweat of your forehead till you return to the ground — for you were taken out of it: you are dust, and you will return to dust.”

There was no such thing as sexism until those in their God-assigned roles, rebelled. As a result of sin, dominance came to the fore and put a cloud over God's original arrangement.

Just as a vehicle has one driver and perhaps a passenger or two, all allow the driver to get to them safely to their destination. If the front seat passenger suddenly grabbed the steering wheel because they felt that the driver was going in the wrong direction, what would likely happen?
Better to advise the driver calmly and wait for them to pull over and discuss the route. What would happen if automobiles had two steering wheels and two sets of controls? Chaos! :eek: The buck stops with the assigned 'head', just like it does in other areas of life. Someone has to take responsibility.

Man invented the idea of sexism, but only because man himself had turned his headship into a dictatorship. The wrong kind of headship made women feel like chattels, completely undervalued and often abused. Some cultures still treat women this way.

Marriage is a partnership and all within the family unit have assigned roles. Love was to be the predominant overriding quality that was to smooth the waters if there was disagreement. Legitimate compromise or a meeting in the middle somewhere, usually keeps the peace.

If family heads put the needs (not necessarily the wants) of other family members first, hopefully those other members will return the favor and also yield to the needs of all in the family. Selfishness should never drive any decision, inherited imperfection is always at odds with what is right.

God assigned the roles but when someone steps outside of their role, trouble usually follows. :( It's all about the balance.
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
I thought this was interesting too given the mention of Lilith by others in the thread here.

Origin of the Lilith Legend - Lilith as Adam's First Wife

To explain the apparent discrepancy between Gen 1 and Gen 2, it appears as if men invented the idea of a first wife in what they believe are two different creation accounts. For the first wife to be a disobedient and rebellious creation of the true God, would make his creation way less than perfect, would it not? What would be the purpose of God's creating a second wife who was also rebellious? That would be a rather perplexing question since the marriage arrangement is God's design and nothing he creates is imperfect. It is the actions of free willed beings that result in God's arrangement becoming imperfect.

The comment in Gen 2:4, 5 states "Here is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created. On the day when Adonai, God, made earth and heaven, 5 there was as yet no wild bush on the earth, and no wild plant had as yet sprung up; for Adonai, God, had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no one to cultivate the ground."

The whole creative period is called a "day". And it starts with the earth devoid of plant life and living beings (including man) to cultivate the ground.
A history is a compilation of events to explain in more detail what took place. Perhaps it is not necessarily in chronological order like the first account in Gen 1? It appears that Gen 2 fills in the blanks left by Gen 1. They are not contradictory but complimentary.

But filling in the blanks with imagination is not really the way to go is it? We end up with myth and folklore masquerading as scriptural truth. Not really ideal in ascertaining the truth, is it? :(
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I thought this was interesting too given the mention of Lilith by others in the thread here.

Origin of the Lilith Legend - Lilith as Adam's First Wife

To explain the apparent discrepancy between Gen 1 and Gen 2, it appears as if men invented the idea of a first wife in what they believe are two different creation accounts. For the first wife to be a disobedient and rebellious creation of the true God, would make his creation way less than perfect, would it not? What would be the purpose of God's creating a second wife who was also rebellious? That would be a rather perplexing question since the marriage arrangement is God's design and nothing he creates is imperfect. It is the actions of free willed beings that result in God's arrangement becoming imperfect.

The comment in Gen 2:4, 5 states "Here is the history of the heavens and the earth when they were created. On the day when Adonai, God, made earth and heaven, 5 there was as yet no wild bush on the earth, and no wild plant had as yet sprung up; for Adonai, God, had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no one to cultivate the ground."

The whole creative period is called a "day". And it starts with the earth devoid of plant life and living beings (including man) to cultivate the ground. A history is a compilation of events to explain in more detail what took place. Perhaps it is not necessarily in chronological order like the first account in Gen 1? It appears that Gen 2 fills in the blanks left by Gen 1. They are not contradictory but complimentary.

But filling in the blanks with imagination is not really the way to go is it? We end up with myth and folklore masquerading as scriptural truth. Not really ideal in ascertaining the truth, is it? :(

From the link...

Lilith is mentioned four times in the Babylonian Talmud, but it is not until the Alphabet of Ben Sira (c. 800s to 900s) that the character of Lilith is associated with the first version of Creation. In this medieval text, Ben Sira names Lilith as Adam’s first wife and presents a full account of her story.:faint:
 

Shermana

Heretic
But filling in the blanks with imagination is not really the way to go is it? We end up with myth and folklore masquerading as scriptural truth.

How do we know what the "Lilith" is in Isaiah exactly? What justification is there for some translations calling it a "Screech owl"?

What is considered "Scriptural truth" may very well have implications of what was Oral stories before the final compilation of the Tanakh.
 

roger1440

I do stuff
How do we know what the "Lilith" is in Isaiah exactly? What justification is there for some translations calling it a "Screech owl"?

What is considered "Scriptural truth" may very well have implications of what was Oral stories before the final compilation of the Tanakh.

"English translators of Isaiah 34:14 sometimes lack confidence in their readers’ knowledge of Babylonian demonology. The King James Bible’s prose rendition of the poem translates “the lilith” as “the screech owl,” recalling the ominous bird-like qualities of the Babylonian she-demon. The Revised Standard Version picks up on her nocturnal habits and tags her “the night hag” instead of “the lilith,” while the 1917 Jewish Publication Society’s Holy Scriptures calls her “the night-monster.”6 The Hebrew text and its best translations employ the word “lilith” in the Isaiah passage, but other versions are true to her ancient image as a bird, night creature and beldam (hag)."
Lilith in the Bible, Art and Mythology – Biblical Archaeology Society
 

Shermana

Heretic
but other versions are true to her ancient image as a bird, night creature and beldam (hag)."

Hag and night creature definitely fit the role, but I'd like to see an "Ancient image" or a traditional depiction of "Lilith" as a bird.

At the very least, the "bird" image is directly associated as a mere "quality" of the depiction of a "She-demon" with direct correspondence to Babylonian "mythology" (and by "mythology" I mean "Things they actually thought were real things".)

Either way though, I think the reference is clearly indicating a direct belief in some supernatural demonic being called "Lilith".
 

roger1440

I do stuff
Hag and night creature definitely fit the role, but I'd like to see an "Ancient image" or a traditional depiction of "Lilith" as a bird.

At the very least, the "bird" image is directly associated as a mere "quality" of the depiction of a "She-demon" with direct correspondence to Babylonian "mythology" (and by "mythology" I mean "Things they actually thought were real things".)

Either way though, I think the reference is clearly indicating a direct belief in some supernatural demonic being called "Lilith".
Lilith_Periodo_de_Isin_Larsa_y_Babilonia.JPG
 

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
From the link...

Lilith is mentioned four times in the Babylonian Talmud, but it is not until the Alphabet of Ben Sira (c. 800s to 900s) that the character of Lilith is associated with the first version of Creation. In this medieval text, Ben Sira names Lilith as Adam’s first wife and presents a full account of her story.:faint:

LOL, the story of Ben Sira is fascinating all by itself! :p

Ben Sira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am amazed that Jewish teaching is so full of myth and legend. :eek: Makes for some interesting reading. Do people really believe this stuff?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Adam came first. Eve came from Adam. God didn't take Eve from Adam's head; He made her from his rib. Adam kept the head; so he is the head. I'm not implying women are stupid. I'm saying God ordained it to be that the man was the head over the woman in the marriage. One of them must be in charge because they are proclaimed to be one "flesh". So a body normally doesn't have two heads. (No offence to those who do have two heads ...) This was all a type of marriage. And God made clear from the beginning the structure that a marriage takes so there was no confusion.

This was a type of God's divine plan to come. Which is that God would marry His people as a man marries a wife. And God would be the head of that marriage as a man is the head of his marriage.

I pity any wife of yours.
who has to put up with that nonsense.
 

garrydons

Member
Considering that it's the way 99.999% of cultures have done so, perhaps its more natural and biological especially in ancient times, than "sexist".

Please keep in mind, the concept of "rule over" does not mean "Keep a lock and key on and deliver daily beatings to" like in some of those cultures.

shalom!!! I absolutely agree with you. to "rule over" does not mean to abuse the woman.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
Adam didn't have a first wife before Eve.

I find it insulting how the radical feminists change the Torah in order to make the Torah fit their beliefs.

It's very similar to christians who insert jesus within the Torah where he doesn't exist.

Again, you're skipping over the point that this is not "radical feminists changing the Torah," it's midrash. Nobody has claimed it to be pshat. Midrash. The earliest idea of Adam having a first wife (not named as Lilit) comes in Bere**** Rabbah. Chazal in the Gemara speak of a demon or kind of demon called Lilit. Alef Bet d'Ben Sirach puts the two together. The demon-mother Lilit, first wife of Adam, appears in various sifrei Kabbalah, including the Zohar and Sefer Emek ha-Melech.

None of that has anything to do with feminists, radical or otherwise. Trying to change the subject or ignore these facts doesn't change that Lilit is a midrash many gedolim have discussed and used. Doesn't make it pshat, doesn't mean it's a doctrine we all have to agree to accept, but it does mean it's a real midrash within our tradition, not a modern invention or recent sycretization.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Again, you're skipping over the point that this is not "radical feminists changing the Torah," it's midrash. Nobody has claimed it to be pshat. Midrash. The earliest idea of Adam having a first wife (not named as Lilit) comes in Bere**** Rabbah. Chazal in the Gemara speak of a demon or kind of demon called Lilit. Alef Bet d'Ben Sirach puts the two together. The demon-mother Lilit, first wife of Adam, appears in various sifrei Kabbalah, including the Zohar and Sefer Emek ha-Melech.



None of that has anything to do with feminists, radical or otherwise. Trying to change the subject or ignore these facts doesn't change that Lilit is a midrash many gedolim have discussed and used. Doesn't make it pshat, doesn't mean it's a doctrine we all have to agree to accept, but it does mean it's a real midrash within our tradition, not a modern invention or recent sycretization.


Ben Sira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The legend is brought in the apocryphal and (semi-)heretical work the Alphabet of Sirach. The Rambam and others have ridiculed such writings as a waste of time[citation needed], but other Rishonim did mention it, if only skeptically or as a point in argument.

Rambam might have a point and I was referring to the nonsense about Adam's alleged other wife.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
[/I]

Ben Sira - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The legend is brought in the apocryphal and (semi-)heretical work the Alphabet of Sirach. The Rambam and others have ridiculed such writings as a waste of time[citation needed], but other Rishonim did mention it, if only skeptically or as a point in argument.

Rambam might have a point and I was referring to the nonsense about Adam's alleged other wife.

That's one source you don't care for, fine. What about the Gemara? Bere**** Rabbah? What about the Zohar and other sifrei Kabbalah? They raise midrashim about Adam having a first wife, even if she's not always named. Are they also illegitimate and sketchy, or is it not that the idea of this being a legitimate midrash is nonsensical as much that you simply don't like it?
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
To my knowledge only the alphabet stated that Lilith was Adam's first wife.

That's the topic of the tangent.
 
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roger1440

I do stuff
To my knowledge only the alphabet stated that Lilith was Adam's first wife.

That's the topic of the tangent.
Zohar 1:34b

When the letters of the name of Adam, descended below, together in their completeness, the male and the female were found together, and the female was attached to his side, until God cast a deep slumber upon him and he fell asleep. And he lay in the place of the Temple below. And the Holy One, blessed be He, sawed her off him, and adorned her as they adorn a bride, and brought her to him.... In an ancient book I found that this [refers to] the primeval Lilith who was with him and conceived from him, but was not a helpmeet for him.... (Patai81:454)

Zohar 3:19
Come and see: There is a female, a spirit of all spirits, and her name is Lilith, and she was at first with Adam. And in the hour when Adam was created and his body became completed, a thousand spirits from the left [evil] side clung to that body until the Holy One, blessed be He, shouted at them and drove them away. And Adam was lying, a body without a spirit, and his appearance was green, and all those spirits surrounded him. In that hour a cloud descended an pushed away all those spirits. And when Adam stood up, his female was attached to his side. And that holy spirit which was in him spread out to this side and that side, and grew here and there, and thus became complete. Thereafter the Holy One, blessed be He, sawed Adam into two, and made the female. And He brought her to Adam in her perfection like a bride to the canopy. When Lilith saw this, she fled. And she is in the cities of the sea, and she is still trying to harm the sons of the world. (Patai81:455)

http://lilith.abroadplanet.com/Jewish.php
 
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