• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Genesis 3:16

roger1440

roger1440

I do stuff
According to one Jewish folklore story, Lilim , Lilith's daughter is actually Cain's wife.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilin

N05061_10.jpg
 
Last edited:
mystic64

mystic64

nolonger active
hindupridemn said:
Man to rule over woman. How is this not sexist?
Click to expand...

Any discussion on "Man to rule over women" has got to include Lilith. The dictionary defines her as the Hebrew demon/witch of desolate places and in my travels as a mystic I have met her (and a young lady that channeled her) and as an entity Lilith is not to be messed with. Also with that said, the Jewish feminine movement is not the only feminist movement to rally around Lilith. There are a lot of feminists that rally around Lilith.

Historically speaking Lilith was the first feminist and her hatred of men is legendary. It should also be understood that historically speaking there were two approaches to religion, those that worshiped the Mother and those that worshiped the Father. And those that worshiped the Mother did not have feminists because women were considered the dominant sex and head of households by the men that followed that religion. So technically Lilith is the first feminist in the religious world that worshiped the Father and her quoted words, "I will not lay beneath you!", are a demand for equality in the religious world that worships the Father. My heritage background is basically Celtic and my ancestors worshiped the Mother, so I do not have any problem with my wife being in charge in spite of the fact that I am Christian and am suppose to be the dominant in charge.

So I do consider "Man to rule over woman" sexist. At the same time I feel that invoking Lilith as an anchor to the feminist movement for equality in the religious world of the worship of the Father not the thing to do because Lilith is dangerous and nasty and in her world there should only be one sex in the human species, "female". As a member of the male persuasion, I object to this. At the same time as a Christian I also abject to fundamentalist Christianity demanding male dominance in all things. To me that is just not right and Lilith was not wrong in what she was quoted to have said. At the same time I do not feel that the invoking of Lilith and her hatred of men the right thing to do either.
 
RabbiO

RabbiO

הרב יונה בן זכריה
CMike said:
That's probably why the radical feminists concocted the fable.
Click to expand...

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

At what point do you finally and actually integrate into your brain that despite your general disdain for Jewish feminists, radical or not, and your specific disdain of their appropriation of the Lilith legend, that they did not concoct it?

How many times do Levite and I, as well as others, have to remind you of this simple fact before you understand that? This isn't exactly rocket science. If you cannot, or will not, grasp this, then with that kind of tunnel vision you lose any credibility with me.

l'shalom,

Peter
 
roger1440

roger1440

I do stuff
RabbiO said:
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

At what point do you finally and actually integrate into your brain that despite your general disdain for Jewish feminists, radical or not, and your specific disdain of their appropriation of the Lilith legend, that they did not concoct it?

How many times do Levite and I, as well as others, have to remind you of this simple fact before you understand that? This isn't exactly rocket science. If you cannot, or will not, grasp this, then with that kind of tunnel vision you lose any credibility with me.

l'shalom,

Peter
Click to expand...
Does main stream Judaism accept the "Lilith legend"? Most people in general never heard of her. Not that I'm bragging, but I'm not like most people. I think I have read just about everything on her except the Muslim legends. I'm working on that now, LOL
 
mystic64

mystic64

nolonger active
Back in my younger days I read a science fiction book called, "Sex and the High Command" by John Boyd. To make a long story short, science came up with a drug that when taken by women caused them to spontaneously become pregnant with a girl child and they no longer needed men to reproduce their kind. The story ended with the male side of the human species becoming extinct. That book along with my background in science caused me to become interested in what is generally considered the "Feminist Movement" and to take that movement seriously. Which is why I find this topic, "Genesis 3:16" and "Isn't that sexist?" interesting. And now that Lilith has surfaced in this topic things are very interesting because there is absolutely nothing "nice" written about her and with her being associated with the "Feminist movement" there is no good that can come from it relative to the harmony between men and women.

Genesis 3:16 is sexist, especially if the decisions that men make and the actions that men take, upset women. And all religions that worship a male deity consider women secondary to men and sometimes even inferior. This attitude in the religions that worship the Father is in today's world creating a schism between men and women that in my opinion needs to be taken seriously and Genesis 3:16 is a foundation scripture for that attitude. There is in today's world a war going on both internally and externally in the religions that worship the Father and in the middle of this war is a war between the sexes. And this war between the sexes could end up eliminating those religions that worship the Father because the women that are a part of those religions are fed up and tired of the whole thing. And now enter Lilith, the goddess of a world with no men in it. This topic as presented relative to religion really does need to be discussed, in my opinion, as one that does worship the Father and also as one who is of the male persuasion.
 
roger1440

roger1440

I do stuff
mystic64 said:
Back in my younger days I read a science fiction book called, "Sex and the High Command" by John Boyd. To make a long story short, science came up with a drug that when taken by women caused them to spontaneously become pregnant with a girl child and they no longer needed men to reproduce their kind. The story ended with the male side of the human species becoming extinct. That book along with my background in science caused me to become interested in what is generally considered the "Feminist Movement" and to take that movement seriously. Which is why I find this topic, "Genesis 3:16" and "Isn't that sexist?" interesting. And now that Lilith has surfaced in this topic things are very interesting because there is absolutely nothing "nice" written about her and with her being associated with the "Feminist movement" there is no good that can come from it relative to the harmony between men and women.

Genesis 3:16 is sexist, especially if the decisions that men make and the actions that men take, upset women. And all religions that worship a male deity consider women secondary to men and sometimes even inferior. This attitude in the religions that worship the Father is in today's world creating a schism between men and women that in my opinion needs to be taken seriously and Genesis 3:16 is a foundation scripture for that attitude. There is in today's world a war going on both internally and externally in the religions that worship the Father and in the middle of this war is a war between the sexes. And this war between the sexes could end up eliminating those religions that worship the Father because the women that are a part of those religions are fed up and tired of the whole thing. And now enter Lilith, the goddess of a world with no men in it. This topic as presented relative to religion really does need to be discussed, in my opinion, as one that does worship the Father and also as one who is of the male persuasion.
Click to expand...
The word מָשַׁל (to rule) may have been a mistake in translation. Maybe the word מָשָׁל (become like) was meant. Check this out.
http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/strongs_4911.htm
I have spent the last week on this verse. I do not know Hebrew so it takes me a long time to research this.
 
mystic64

mystic64

nolonger active
roger1440 said:
The word מָשַׁל (to rule) may have been a mistake in translation. Maybe the word מָשָׁל (become like) was meant. Check this out.
http://biblesuite.com/hebrew/strongs_4911.htm
I have spent the last week on this verse. I do not know Hebrew so it takes me a long time to research this.
Click to expand...

Oh Roger :) ! If you are right it would really change things. My suggestion would be to email the Jewish feminist magazine and ask them about that possibility :) . If there is any possibility that you are right, they will grab it and run with it and things will be some version of different. Good post!
 
A

Athan

Member
CMike said:
According to Judaism, there was Adam and Eve.

Adam didn't have a previous wife.

Wherever you are getting this from isn't from Judaism.
Click to expand...
It's true. Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden together, where they were both created by the hand of God.
 
JayJayDee

JayJayDee

Avid JW Bible Student
Athan said:
It's true. Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden together, where they were both created by the hand of God.
Click to expand...

I am intrigued by the weight given to Jewish myth and legend.

Does God make imperfect junk? If Lilith was a first wife for Adam and she was some sort of rebellious cow, then that would make sin enter into the world without even touching the forbidden fruit, which was the only cause of death and the beginning of sin. No rebel is mentioned in the Bible before God created Eve.

Isaiah 34:14 from the Orthodox Jewish Bible.....

"The tziyyim (martens) shall also encounter iyyim (wild cats), and a sa’ir (wild goat) calls to its companion, and lilit (night creature) dwells there and finds for itself a mano’ach (place of rest)."

This mentions lilit only as "a night creature".

Youngs Literal Translation renders it "And met have Ziim with Aiim, And the goat for its companion calleth, Only there rested hath the night-owl, And hath found for herself a place of rest."

A 'night-owl' or a 'nightjar' is reference to a nocturnal bird.

If this embellished, mythological character is not spoken about in sacred scripture as anything but a bird or nocturnal creature, then myth is all she is.
 
Last edited:
CMike

CMike

Well-Known Member
roger1440 said:
Does main stream Judaism accept the "Lilith legend"? Most people in general never heard of her. Not that I'm bragging, but I'm not like most people. I think I have read just about everything on her except the Muslim legends. I'm working on that now, LOL
Click to expand...
No.

It's concocted by radical feminists and supported by left wing jews.

They found the tale that was created in a book written in the middle ages that was discredited by the Jews' sages. The great Rambam called the book "a waste of time".

There is nothing to it.

Read the story of Genesis. The story of Adam and Eve is pretty clear. Notice there is no first wife before Eve in the Genesis story.

In fact, it is stated why G-D created Eve. Adam needed a helper and companion and Eve was created.
 
CMike

CMike

Well-Known Member
There are a lot of great jewish women who were heroines.

My favorite is Devorah. She led an army of 10,000 against a very formidable army. The army of Sisera had numerous iron chariots (modern day tanks) During the battle it rained and the chariots got stuck in the mud. As a result they were crushed in the battle.

She was a leader, judge, prophetess, and commander.

Another one of my favorites is Yael, who was also a jewish female commander.

The Prophetess Deborah - (2654-2694) - Jewish History

Of course, Miriam, Moses' sister was a great jewish woman. When the jews were in the desert a stream followed Miriam so the jews would have water.

There are many other great jewish women.

A more modern day great jewish woman was Golda Meir.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top