Genesis 3:16

[mystic64]

According to Jewish Laws, no matter what happens, you cannot renounce your Judaism.

Thank you. So as a circumcised Christian male I can renounce Christianity, but I can not renounce Judaism. Cool!

 

[CMike]

A question concerning Lilith

In Christianity, which is an offshoot of Judaism and we both worship the same God, any Christian feminist movement that invoked Lilith would no longer be considered Christian because Lilith is generally considered a demon that is anti God. My question is, "Why is this not so in Judaism?" In Judaism isn't there also rules against that? Genesis 3:16 could be considered sexist and Lilith could be considered the first feminist but there is no way that Lilith is Jewish and based on what is written about her she is also anti God. Just out of curiosity, how can a Jewish feminist movement invoke Lilith and still be considered Jewish? There are a lot of examples of God getting upset because of folks doing things that are similar to what the Jewish feminist movement is doing, why is what they are doing, different this time?

Those are questions.

Also now that I think about it the radical feminists are using someone considered demonic as their poster lady.

Kind of fitting.

 

[CMike]

Thank you. So as a circumcised Christian male I can renounce Christianity, but I can not renounce Judaism. Cool!

How can you renounce being jewish if you are not jewish?

 

[mystic64]

I can relate to Lilith. It can be frustrating being viewed as a sex object. Even more frustrating when they won't take no for an answer. When the frontal lobes are incapacitated by lust, reason has little chance of working, and you sometimes have to get a little nasty to get your point acrossed. Otherwise, if you try to be nice about it, you just might find yourself ravished against your will. Then you get blamed for it. Yeah, like that makes a lot of sense.

Here's a recent example:

Rape victim suing Lynnwood police | HeraldNet.com - Local news

With the percentage of women who have been raped during their lifetime, and the number of men who admit to rape, and the tendency to just dismiss such, or even perform "honor killings" to dispel this haunting reality, I can see why someone tuning into this collective unconscious aspect would see it as being nasty. Lilith has to be nasty as long as "No!" is not respected. Lilith wouldn't have to be anywhere near as nasty if "No!" was respected.

Yours is an interesting approach to this discussion. Have you ever met Lilith? A man can be the nicest most respectful guy to women that one has ever met and Lilith will still do everything in her power to destroy him. She hates men and she hates God the Creator because He is male. Also there is no record of her ever being molested by God the Creator or any man. And to be honest to her, her objection is to "dominance" of man (male) in anyway over woman (female) which I personally agree with. And who knows, maybe she has a reason for the way that she feels and she is not just plain mean and hateful and "dominance" is just an excuse to be that way. There is no give in her Crossfire and if you are male and not of her blood she will destroy you unless God the Creator personally steps in and says, "No.". No matter how you look at it, Lilith is the perfect entity for women that hate men and object to Genesis 3:16, as it is presently interpreted (thanks to Roger ), to invoke, because no man has a defense against her without God the Creator interceding personally.

 

[mystic64]

How can you renounce being jewish if you are not jewish?

Christianity is a Jewish sect. No more no less. Christian folks can disagree with that and Jewish folks can disagree with that, but it still does not change things. As a Christian, I consider myself also Jewish and Jewish folks my brothers and sisters even though I do not follow traditional Jewish customs, which some Jewish folks do not follow either.

 

[dantech]

Thank you. So as a circumcised Christian male I can renounce Christianity, but I can not renounce Judaism. Cool!

I don't see how. That would be like a Christian renouncing his Muslimness(Is that a word?)...

 

[dantech]

Christianity is a Jewish sect. No more no less. Christian folks can disagree with that and Jewish folks can disagree with that, but it still does not change things. As a Christian, I consider myself also Jewish and Jewish folks my brothers and sisters even though I do not follow traditional Jewish customs, which some Jewish folks do not follow either.

If you feel Jewish, and believe when our Rabbis explain that you can't renounce Judaism, then you also need to believe when they ask to keep the Sabbath. Or when they say not to eat pork.

 

[crossfire]

Yours is an interesting approach to this discussion. Have you ever met Lilith?

Yeah, I've been the designated "cad magnet" in this life.

A man can be the nicest most respectful guy to women that one has ever met and Lilith will still do everything in her power to destroy him. She hates men and she hates God the Creator because He is male.

Well, when you can't even go from your car to the front door of a business to pay your bill without getting groped, with this sort of thing being commonplace, that negative conditioning can really take its toll on your psyche. If you are repeatedly approached by beings with disabled frontal lobes, it can become a habit to get a little snippy when approached by someone whose frontal lobes are engaged. This snippiness can be exasperated by being sexually assaulted and then blamed for it by either being accused of being "uncooperative" or for "asking for it." While it may be mostly men who do the assaulting, women will also place the blame of the one who was assaulted.

Also there is no record of her ever being molested by God the Creator or any man.

I see Lilith more in the archetypical, collective unconscious memory sort of way. And yes, there is plenty of instances of women being molested throughout history, so this archetype has a whole heck of a lot of energy.
Notice how "nocturnal emissions" are attributed to Lilith--I see the more likely scenario as sexual objectification fantasy. (But that is only my interpretation.)

And to be honest to her, her objection is to "dominance" of man (male) in anyway over woman (female) which I personally agree with.

And who knows, maybe she has a reason for the way that she feels and she is not just plain mean and hateful and "dominance" is just an excuse to be that way.

Well, not everyone agrees with your view.
With the history we have of how sexual assault victims are treated and have been treated throughout history, I can understand the mean and hateful attitude. In the link to the news story I posted, not only did the victim get charged for reporting a false report, but she was even ordered by the court to submit to psychological reprogramming--to convince her that the rape didn't take place, but that "she dreamed it." When the police in Colorado found a picture of her with her ID on a serial rapist suspect, only then did the local authorities realize just how deeply the had stepped into the egregorical crap.

There is no give in her Crossfire and if you are male and not of her blood she will destroy you unless God the Creator personally steps in and says, "No.". No mater how you look at it, Lilith is the perfect entity for women that hate men and object to Genesis 3:16, as it is presently interpreted (thanks to Roger ), to invoke, because no man has a defense against her without God the Creator interceding personally.

Hate doesn't overcome hate. Hate is overcome by non-hate. Get those frontal lobes working and say "No!" to the hate.

 

[crossfire]

Back to Genesis 3:16

16 He said to the woman:

I will intensify your labor pains;
you will bear children in anguish.​

Nasty ol' hormones!

Your desire will be for your husband,
yet he will rule over you.

Eve's desires would dominate her mind.

I think everyone can relate to how drugs will dominate a drug addict's life as an extreme example how a person can be dominated by their desires.

 

[CMike]

Desire for her husband can be a good thing too.

 

[CMike]

Christianity is a Jewish sect. No more no less. Christian folks can disagree with that and Jewish folks can disagree with that, but it still does not change things. As a Christian, I consider myself also Jewish and Jewish folks my brothers and sisters even though I do not follow traditional Jewish customs, which some Jewish folks do not follow either.

You are jewish if your mother is jewish.

If your mother isn't jewish, unless you converted, you are not jewish.

You may consider yourself anything you want, but based on what I stated above you aren't jewish.

 

[roger1440]

A question concerning Lilith

In Christianity, which is an offshoot of Judaism and we both worship the same God, any Christian feminist movement that invoked Lilith would no longer be considered Christian because Lilith is generally considered a demon that is anti God. My question is, "Why is this not so in Judaism?" In Judaism isn't there also rules against that? Genesis 3:16 could be considered sexist and Lilith could be considered the first feminist but there is no way that Lilith is Jewish and based on what is written about her she is also anti God. Just out of curiosity, how can a Jewish feminist movement invoke Lilith and still be considered Jewish? There are a lot of examples of God getting upset because of folks doing things that are similar to what the Jewish feminist movement is doing, why is what they are doing, different this time?

The story of the legend or folklore of the demon Lilith can be traced back nearly four thousand years. She pre dates the Jewish and Christian bible. It starts with the Babylonians. The ball is then passed to the Jews who then pass it on to the Christians. The Muslims are also in the game. During the last four thousand years the story has been evolving. In one legend one of Lilith’s daughters is Cain’s wife. In another legend the offspring of Satan and Lilith are said to be the parents of the Muslim Jinn. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinn . The legend of Lilith has gone into many directions. There is no official doctrine or theology. Therefore she can be the personation for women’s rights or your worst nightmare in a woman’s form. Who knows, maybe a thousand years from now she could be Santa Claus’s second wife. Let’s face it, Mrs. Claus isn’t getting any younger. From what I have read about Lilith, she is pretty hot. No man can resist her. Judging from the size of Santa Claus, it is best Lilith be on top.

 

[Harmonious]

It's not in the medrish Talmud or Zohar.

It's nonsense created by the radical feminists.

<snip>

Mike, are you seriously going to tell me that centuries' old Sephardic customs are created by the radical feminists of the 1960s?

I'm not sure if you are calling MY learning heretical.

Or, rather, do you think the teaching I received from the Sephardic rabbi in Stern College of Yeshiva University who explained the custom of Moroccan men running a sword around the walls of the baby's room the day before the boy's bris to prevent Lilit and other attending demons from stealing the boy and leaving a changeling in his place "a radical leftist conspiracy"?

I know why the concept annoys you, Mike. Radical feminists have gone nuts. I agree.

But dude, you cannot dismiss the Talmud because you don't like it. There are pieces of Agadita, or even law that I might find silly. Ask me about the bizarre case of oaths over an animal that isn't determined to be either wild or domesticated, and how many situations described would cause someone to become a Nazir sometime.

You cannot dismiss the Zohar because some of the mysticism is too "out there" for you. There are far weirder passages that describe things you wouldn't imagine and compare them to sexual images, and have NOTHING to do with sex, but have to do with the intimacy between the love of God and Israel. Descriptions of angels and demons are nothing new, and an anthropomorphism of a human desire to do the wrong thing can be beyond disturbing.

Lilit is there in Jewish folklore. The heavy importance given to her by feminists who think they know better is disturbing, I agree. But you can't seriously tell me that centuries of Sephardic mysticism and practice were made up just to make radical feminists happy.

 

[JayJayDee]

The story of the legend or folklore of the demon Lilith can be traced back nearly four thousand years. She pre dates the Jewish and Christian bible. It starts with the Babylonians.

Ah, yes, Babylon!

All things of a false religious nature can be traced back to Babylon. It was the city built by Noah's great grandson, Nimrod and the tower of Babel was one of the reasons why God confused the language of those who would follow this first human rebel after the flood, refusing God's directive to 'spread abroad in the earth'. (Gen. 10:8-10; 11:1-9) The confusing of the language took false Babylonian religious beliefs to the ends of the earth. Have you never wondered about the similarities?

When Nimrod was killed, his mother Semiramis placed him among the gods, deifying him and making herself "the mother of God". Mother goddess worship is found all over the ancient world. So is the worship of the "dying god", Tammuz (Nimrod) who was worshipped and bewailed each year so as to bring him to life. Even Israel fell to worshipping this false deity. (Ezek 8:14)

In Sumerian texts, Tammuz is called Dumuzi and is identified as the consort or lover of the fertility goddess Inanna (Babylonian Ishtar). Ishtar was also known by various names and "Easter" customs are related to this goddess of fertility. (her emblems being rabbits and eggs) The death of Christ was grafted over the worship of 'the dying god' also prominently featured in Easter celebrations.

The principal god of the imperial city of Babylon was Marduk, called Merodach in the Bible. It has been suggested that Nimrod was deified as Marduk, but the opinions of scholars as to identifications of gods with specific humans vary. Triads of deities were also prominent in the Babylonian religion. One of these, made up of two gods and a goddess, was Sin (the moon-god), Shamash (the sun-god), and Ishtar; these were said to be the rulers of the zodiac. And still another triad was composed of the devils Labartu, Labasu, and Akhkhazu. Idolatry was everywhere in evidence. Babylon was indeed &#8220;a land of graven images". (Jer 50:1, 2)

So you are right....Babylon is the source. It features in false worship under different names in different cultures down through time, pre-dating the Bible record written by Moses.

The ball is then passed to the Jews who then pass it on to the Christians. The Muslims are also in the game

.
Bingo! :yes:

Just as the Bible foretold.

When God gave the Revelation to John, he speaks of "Babylon the great" as a "harlot"; one who has a "kingdom over the kings of the earth". He is speaking of all religions that have adopted ancient Babylonian religious teachings and practices and who continue to perpetuate them. These have always exercised their authority over kings or political leaders down through time.

When Israel fell to worshipping false deities, Jehovah accused her of adultery. Not physical adultery, but of the spiritual kind. Like an unfaithful wife, she took false gods to her bed. (Jer 3:6-10)

The Bible writer James warned Christians not to become "friends with the world" or else they would find themselves "enemies of God". (James 4:4)
Babylon the great has always been friends with the world.

When you tie it all together, it makes perfect sense. The worship of God is as corrupt today as it has always been.

The written history of Israel was not preserved to extol the virtues of this one race, who were basically no better than any other people on the planet. They were the ones whom God chose to teach lessons to the rest. They were the example of what happens when we obey God and receive his blessings and also the example of what happens when humans seek out the worship of other gods.....Jehovah's wrath was poured out upon them, sometimes very severely.

So, what have we learned?

 

[Flankerl]

I can relate to Lilith. It can be frustrating being viewed as a sex object. Even more frustrating when they won't take no for an answer. When the frontal lobes are incapacitated by lust, reason has little chance of working, and you sometimes have to get a little nasty to get your point acrossed. Otherwise, if you try to be nice about it, you just might find yourself ravished against your will. Then you get blamed for it. Yeah, like that makes a lot of sense.

Here's a recent example:

Rape victim suing Lynnwood police | HeraldNet.com - Local news

With the percentage of women who have been raped during their lifetime, and the number of men who admit to rape, and the tendency to just dismiss such, or even perform "honor killings" to dispel this haunting reality, I can see why someone tuning into this collective unconscious aspect would see it as being nasty. Lilith has to be nasty as long as "No!" is not respected. Lilith wouldn't have to be anywhere near as nasty if "No!" was respected.

Well iam not really sure if you can compare full fledged evil demons with female rape victims, but whatever floats your boat.

 

[dantech]

Mike, are you seriously going to tell me that centuries' old Sephardic customs are created by the radical feminists of the 1960s?

I'm not sure if you are calling MY learning heretical.

Or, rather, do you think the teaching I received from the Sephardic rabbi in Stern College of Yeshiva University who explained the custom of Moroccan men running a sword around the walls of the baby's room the day before the boy's bris to prevent Lilit and other attending demons from stealing the boy and leaving a changeling in his place "a radical leftist conspiracy"?

We are as Moroccan as they get, and I can confirm we do this ritual the night before the Bris. It's called Tajdid or Tahdid, depending on the pronunciation.
It is a ritual designed protect the baby from the Ayin Hara, and from demons, also called Jnouns which no doubt included Lilith. Now that I think about it, I wonder how this Minhag started. Was it adopted from the Muslims?

It's a series of prayers (Shir ha Shirim, Mishna, Zohar) followed by the pointing of the sword in all directions and corners of the house, followed by Birkat Kohanim.

 

[CMike]

Mike, are you seriously going to tell me that centuries' old Sephardic customs are created by the radical feminists of the 1960s?

I'm not sure if you are calling MY learning heretical.

Or, rather, do you think the teaching I received from the Sephardic rabbi in Stern College of Yeshiva University who explained the custom of Moroccan men running a sword around the walls of the baby's room the day before the boy's bris to prevent Lilit and other attending demons from stealing the boy and leaving a changeling in his place "a radical leftist conspiracy"?

I know why the concept annoys you, Mike. Radical feminists have gone nuts. I agree.

But dude, you cannot dismiss the Talmud because you don't like it. There are pieces of Agadita, or even law that I might find silly. Ask me about the bizarre case of oaths over an animal that isn't determined to be either wild or domesticated, and how many situations described would cause someone to become a Nazir sometime.

You cannot dismiss the Zohar because some of the mysticism is too "out there" for you. There are far weirder passages that describe things you wouldn't imagine and compare them to sexual images, and have NOTHING to do with sex, but have to do with the intimacy between the love of God and Israel. Descriptions of angels and demons are nothing new, and an anthropomorphism of a human desire to do the wrong thing can be beyond disturbing.

Lilit is there in Jewish folklore. The heavy importance given to her by feminists who think they know better is disturbing, I agree. But you can't seriously tell me that centuries of Sephardic mysticism and practice were made up just to make radical feminists happy.

I don't know why I have to constantly repeat myself.

The part that is made up by the radical feminists is that Adam had a first wife before Eve. If you look hard enough you can make anything up. They got it from an obscure book that Ramban called a "waste of time"/

However, you can easily prove me wrong. Show me.

Quote from the talmud where it says that Adam had a first wife before Eve, whose name was Lili.

When I state something I almost always back it up. I don't say oh yeah it's in the Mishnah, Talmud, and my rabbi told me. I actually back it up.

As you know I know that you went to Stern College. I went to Yeshiva University High School and College.

We had double programs. 9-1 were jewish studies, and general study classes were 2-8.

However, I am kind of liking that an evil demon is idolized by the radical feminists.

 

[CMike]

We are as Moroccan as they get, and I can confirm we do this ritual the night before the Bris. It's called Tajdid or Tahdid, depending on the pronunciation.
It is a ritual designed protect the baby from the Ayin Hara, and from demons, also called Jnouns which no doubt included Lilith. Now that I think about it, I wonder how this Minhag started. Was it adopted from the Muslims?

It's a series of prayers (Shir ha Shirim, Mishna, Zohar) followed by the pointing of the sword in all directions and corners of the house, followed by Birkat Kohanim.

Be careful. Swords can be dangerous.

 

[dantech]

Be careful. Swords can be dangerous.

So can demons and Lilith. Would you say the risk is worth it?

 

[CMike]

So can demons and Lilith. Would you say the risk is worth it?

I have a shotgun and an AR you can use if you wish?

It may be more effective.