Genesis 3:16

[mystic64]

"Christian Jews" or "Jewish Christians" are self-contradictory terms. If one is Jewish, one is Jewish, and nothing else. A Jew who practices Christianity is either relinquishing their affiliation with Judaism (though technically, under Jewish Law, there is no leaving the Jewish People), since anyone who has any respect for their Jewishness ought not to be violating its most essential core tenet by practicing another religion, and should thus be called a Christian. And if one is Christian, one is not Jewish, until and unless one converts-- at which point they are no longer a Christian, since conversion involves formally abjuring all other faiths.

People who think they can be both at once are kidding themselves. It doesn't work that way. The two religions are fundamentally theologically irreconcilable; and in any case, Christianity is a religion pure and simple, but Judaism is a socioreligious ethnicity: their rules of identity and affiliation are very different.

Thank you Levite, and your information was the information that I was looking for as an attempt to understand the relationship between Christianity and Judaism. So now I understand that the Jewish heritage is in the sharing of certain scriptures and not in the two religions. That was something that I have always wondered about and now understand. And again, thank you.

 

[CMike]

I think they understand loud and clear.
Read this please: Lilith, Lady Flying in Darkness - My Jewish Learning
You will see that it isn't written in stone, but there is a Midrash that talks about her being the first wife of Adam, among other things...

This Midrash is in Bere**** Rabbah, as Levite has stated.

EDIT: Nevermind, the person who wrote that article is a woman, she must be a radical feminist.

Rabbi Jill Hammer, PhD, is an author, educator, midrashist, myth-weaver, and ritualist. She is director of Tel Shemesh, a website celebrating Jewish earth-based traditions, and co-founder of Kohenet: The Hebrew Priestess Institute

Seriously?

Also, she is not a source.

Proving it means proving it from source material not from radical feminst's articles.

BTW what is a "Hebrew Priestess"?

 

[CMike]

I think they understand loud and clear.
Read this please: Lilith, Lady Flying in Darkness - My Jewish Learning
You will see that it isn't written in stone, but there is a Midrash that talks about her being the first wife of Adam, among other things...

This Midrash is in Bere**** Rabbah, as Levite has stated.

EDIT: Nevermind, the person who wrote that article is a woman, she must be a radical feminist.

Also, the women in my synagogue are traditional.

Please don't equate being a jewish woman with being a radical left wing feminist.

I think this is very good article about judaism and women.

Women in the Synagogue - Celebrating Jewish Womanhood

 

[Flankerl]

So as long as no one gives you an article that mentions Lilith being mentioned in Bere**** Rabbah its not true?


Ever cared to, i dont know take up your Talmud and read Bere**** Rabbah?

 

[Harmonious]

So as long as no one gives you an article that mentions Lilith being mentioned in Bere**** Rabbah its not true?


Ever cared to, i dont know take up your Talmud and read Bere**** Rabbah?

The Talmud and Bere**** Rabbah are two different bodies of work.

I do agree with your point, however.

 

[Flankerl]

I think this is very good article about judaism and women.

Women in the Synagogue - Celebrating Jewish Womanhood

Repeat after me: A Synagogue is not like the Temple. So its completely stupid to take the rules of a Temple ruled by men and put them into the concept of the Synagogue.

You of course can do that, but that doesnt mean that its the one and only model to be out there.



Far too many Rabbis already think that they are some kind of devine priest.

The Talmud and Bere**** Rabbah are two different bodies of work.

I do agree with your point, however.

Yeah i just realised my mistake.

 

[CMike]

Repeat after me: A Synagogue is not like the Temple. So its completely stupid to take the rules of a Temple ruled by men and put them into the concept of the Synagogue.

You of course can do that, but that doesnt mean that its the one and only model to be out there.



Far too many Rabbis already think that they are some kind of devine priest.





Yeah i just realised my mistake.

Actually I am a jewish priest.

 

[CMike]

Repeat after me: A Synagogue is not like the Temple. So its completely stupid to take the rules of a Temple ruled by men and put them into the concept of the Synagogue.

You of course can do that, but that doesnt mean that its the one and only model to be out there.

You didn't read the article, did you?

 

[CMike]

So as long as no one gives you an article that mentions Lilith being mentioned in Bere**** Rabbah its not true?


Ever cared to, i dont know take up your Talmud and read Bere**** Rabbah?

There is a great feature called "Quote".

If you use it, I might have a clue what you are responding to.

 

[CMike]

Entirely fallacious.

The "Christian Jewish" gospels and writings are called such for a reason.

This logic only applies to the circular concepts within Rabbinicist ideology in an attempt to corner the meaning of the term "Jewish" and "Judaism". That's fine and all, but when it comes to objective conversation, you're going to have to say that all the scholars who refer to early "Jewish Christians" as such are "kidding themselves".

By this logic, all Reform Jews should be considered outside of Judaism for they have by far and large rejected the tenets of Judaism by regulating many of the aspects of the Law to being unnecessary. And thus Kairites as well, despite their small numbers, should be considered non-Jewish. And then there's the Caucasian Mountain Jews and others like the Kaifeng who have historically had no or little contact with Rabbinical authority and don't believe in many of their rulings.

Most Jewish Christians have the upmost respect for the Law and practice it as best as they believe they can interpret it.

Now with that said, many "Messianic Jewish" congregations, are in fact kidding themselves in many respects.

Christianity and Judaism are mutually exclusive.

Judaism's more important tenent is the belief in one G-D.

• That only G-D is to be worshipped.
• No other person or being can be worshipped in any manner.
• Also that G-D is One and can't be seperated into parts and multiple gods.

Christianity's major tenent by definition is about Jesus.

They are mutually exclusive.

 

[CMike]

Here is an interview with a true jewish heroine.

[youtube]8uPHaioopKM[/youtube]
Barbra Streisand Sings Hatikvah and Talks to Golda Meir - YouTube

 

[roger1440]

BTW what is a "Hebrew Priestess"?

Maybe it's something like a Jewish princess.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish-American_princess_stereotype


[youtube]Y3-Z_gVbsxc[/youtube]
Frank Zappa - Jewish Princess (with lyrics) - YouTube

 

[mystic64]

Christianity and Judaism are mutually exclusive.

Judaism's more important tenent is the belief in one G-D.

• That only G-D is to be worshipped.
• No other person or being can be worshipped in any manner.
• Also that G-D is One and can't be seperated into parts and multiple gods.

Christianity's major tenent by definition is about Jesus.

They are mutually exclusive.

Ah yes that argument can not be argued with. At the same time Jesus never claimed to be G-D. At best He claimed to be the son of G-D with the understanding that we are all the children of G-D, which is probably not considered Jewish tradition. So, just for the record, not all Christians agree with Jesus and the Holy Spirit being G-D, and those Christians do not place any other before G-D. Which, because I do not believe that Jesus is G-D, is also why a lot of Christian folks would not consider me a Christian and one of the reasons why I do not go to church. And which again, then leaves me not Jewish (based on your guy's information) or Christian . So I guess that the best that I can be, is a monotheist mystic in an Abrahamic religion sense because I do worship the G-D of Abraham with no other before Him.

 

[dantech]

So I guess that the best that I can be, is a monotheist mystic in an Abrahamic religion sense because I do worship the G-D of Abraham with no other before Him.

Or, you are a Ben Noach.

 

[CMike]

Maybe it's something like a Jewish princess.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish-American_princess_stereotype


[youtube]Y3-Z_gVbsxc[/youtube]
Frank Zappa - Jewish Princess (with lyrics) - YouTube

Good point. Maybe she is part of the Jewish Princesses Society.

 

[dantech]

Cmike,

Midrashic literature expands the legend that Adam, having parted from his wife after it had been ordained that they should die, begat demons from spirits that had attached themselves to him. It is said that "he was encountered by a Lilith named Piznai who, taken by his beauty, lay with him and bore male and female demons." The firstborn son of this demonic union was Agrimas (see the Midrash published in Ha-Goren, 9 (1914), 66–68; Dvir, 1 (1923), 138; and L. Ginzberg, Legends of the Jews, 5 (1925), 166). The offspring of this Lilith fill the world. A transmuted version of this legend appears in the Alphabet of Ben Sira, a Midrash of the geonic period, which sets out to explain the already widespread custom of writing amulets against Lilith. Here she is identified with the "first Eve," who was created from the earth at the same time as Adam, and who, unwilling to forgo her equality, disputed with him the manner of their intercourse. Pronouncing the Ineffable Name, she flew off into the air. On Adam's request, the Almighty sent after her the three angels Snwy, Snsnwy, and Smnglf; finding her in the Red Sea, the angels threatened that if she did not return, 100 of her sons would die every day. She refused, claiming that she was expressly created to harm newborn infants. However, she had to swear that whenever she saw the image of those angels in an amulet, she would lose her power over the infant. Here the legend concerning the wife of Adam who preceded the creation of Eve (Gen. 2) merges with the earlier legend of Lilith as a demon who kills infants and endangers women in childbirth. This later version of the myth has many parallels in Christian literature from Byzantine (which probably preceded it) and later periods. The female demon is known by different names, many of which reappear in the same or in slightly altered forms in the literature of practical Kabbalah (as, for example, the name Obizoth from the Testament of Solomon), and the place of the angels is taken by three saints – Sines, Sisinnios, and Synodoros. The legend also found its way into Arabic demonology, where Lilith is known as Karina, Tabi'a, or "the mother of the infants." The personification of Lilith as a strangler of babies is already clear in Jewish incantations, written in Babylonian Aramaic, which predate the Alphabet of Ben Sira. A late Midrash (Ba-Midbar Rabbah, end of ch. 16) also mentions her in this respect: "When Lilith finds no children born, she turns on her own" – a motif which relates her to the Babylonian Lamashtu

The rest of the article is from here. Is this also not worthy source? The author cites where the midrashim come from.

Here is the rest. Bit of a long read though.

Lilith

 

[CMike]

Cmike,



The rest of the article is from here. Is this also not worthy source? The author cites where the midrashim come from.

Here is the rest. Bit of a long read though.

Lilith

To prove it is very easy. An article about it doesn't do it.

Also the Alphabet Ben Sira mentioned as the source is a discredited book. The Ramban calls it a "waste of time".

The entire Talmud and almost everything else is online.

Just find it in the Talmud and voila you proved it.

However, it's important to understand how the Talmud works.

There is a topic. Then there are rabbis who go into long winded discussions about the topic. Then it wraps up in the end with the conclusions.

If you look hard enough you can probably just find anything you want to concoct mentioned.

 

[roger1440]

To prove it is very easy. An article about it doesn't do it.

Also the Alphabet Ben Sira mentioned as the source is a discredited book. The Ramban calls it a "waste of time".

The entire Talmud and almost everything else is online.

Just find it in the Talmud and voila you proved it.

However, it's important to understand how the Talmud works.

There is a topic. Then there are rabbis who go into long winded discussions about the topic. Then it wraps up in the end with the conclusions.

If you look hard enough you can probably just find anything you want to concoct mentioned.

But, if it's on the Internet, it must be true.

 

[CMike]

But, if it's on the Internet, it must be true.

Whatever is on the Interet is without a doubt true.

 

[Levite]

Also the Alphabet Ben Sira mentioned as the source is a discredited book. The Ramban calls it a "waste of time".

One authority expressing dislike of a book doesn't universally and completely discredit it. Regardless of who that authority might be.