Genesis 3:16

[mystic64]

Yeah, I've been the designated "cad magnet" in this life.

Well, when you can't even go from your car to the front door of a business to pay your bill without getting groped, with this sort of thing being commonplace, that negative conditioning can really take its toll on your psyche. If you are repeatedly approached by beings with disabled frontal lobes, it can become a habit to get a little snippy when approached by someone whose frontal lobes are engaged. This snippiness can be exasperated by being sexually assaulted and then blamed for it by either being accused of being "uncooperative" or for "asking for it." While it may be mostly men who do the assaulting, women will also place the blame of the one who was assaulted.


I see Lilith more in the archetypical, collective unconscious memory sort of way. And yes, there is plenty of instances of women being molested throughout history, so this archetype has a whole heck of a lot of energy.
Notice how "nocturnal emissions" are attributed to Lilith--I see the more likely scenario as sexual objectification fantasy. (But that is only my interpretation.)


Well, not everyone agrees with your view.
With the history we have of how sexual assault victims are treated and have been treated throughout history, I can understand the mean and hateful attitude. In the link to the news story I posted, not only did the victim get charged for reporting a false report, but she was even ordered by the court to submit to psychological reprogramming--to convince her that the rape didn't take place, but that "she dreamed it." When the police in Colorado found a picture of her with her ID on a serial rapist suspect, only then did the local authorities realize just how deeply the had stepped into the egregorical crap.

Hate doesn't overcome hate. Hate is overcome by non-hate. Get those frontal lobes working and say "No!" to the hate.

Crossfire , you have a very valid point. And I admit that I do thank "the powers that be", should there be any, that I was born a man and not a woman. I personally have no idea how you guys put up with or deal with the stuff that you do and have done. And as far as I am concerned some men need to meet Lilith ! I like being older and having pretty zip for hormones. A beautiful woman can walk by and I hardly notice, life is so much easier .

 

[mystic64]

You are jewish if your mother is jewish.

If your mother isn't jewish, unless you converted, you are not jewish.

You may consider yourself anything you want, but based on what I stated above you aren't jewish.

Ok , that was what I wanted to know. I don't go to church and I don't go to temple and now I at least do not have to feel guilty because I do not go to temple. I guess now the question is whether or not my mother had any Jewish blood in her because I was circumcised shortly after I was born and she does have a Jewish look to her. Anyway, either way I do not have to feel guilty about not going to temple. All is well, and again thank you!

 

[Flankerl]

You do realise that being circumcised in the US has nothing to do with being somewhat jewish or having a jewish mother?


:sarcastic

 

[dantech]

You do realise that being circumcised in the US has nothing to do with being somewhat jewish or having a jewish mother?


:sarcastic

But being circumcised shortly after birth isn't very common outside of Jews and Muslims, is it?

 

[mystic64]

You do realise that being circumcised in the US has nothing to do with being somewhat jewish or having a jewish mother?


:sarcastic

I do now. So my question is, are Christian Jewish folks allowed to go to temple? Both the Jewish folks and the Christian folks agree with Genesis 3:16 and the parts of the Old testament that these two religions share, both worship the same God, and both are waiting for a Messiah to come with Christian folks believing that they know who it is going to be. But it has been two thousand years now and technically everybody is just waiting to see what is actually real. Back in the day, before Paul, a male had to be circumcised before he could be Christian because you had to be Jewish before you could be Christian. Paul came along and said that you could be Christian and not be circumcised. So from there those that were with the Jewish part of Christianity continued to be circumcised and those that were not a part of the Jewish part of Christianity did not become circumcised and were no longer considered Jewish. To not be circumcised is to deny the Jewish heritage of Jesus and Christianity. My mother chose to not deny that heritage and I chose not to deny that heritage. Obviously my mother and I are wrong and it is good to know these things. Thank you for your input!

 

[Levite]

But being circumcised shortly after birth isn't very common outside of Jews and Muslims, is it?

Actually, in the US, it started becoming increasingly common after WWII, and has only begun to diminish in common usage over the past decade or so. Several American medical organizations officially recommend universal circumcision. Very different from other countries, I know.

 

[mystic64]

Actually, in the US, it started becoming increasingly common after WWII, and has only begun to diminish in common usage over the past decade or so. Several American medical organizations officially recommend universal circumcision. Very different from other countries, I know.

Just before world war II American males were told that they had better leave Germany because they were circumcised. The reason that American medical organizations recommend circumcision is because the male penis then carries less bacteria and dirt because it is easier to clean them thus resulting in less vaginal infections in the women that they are sexually active with.

 

[roger1440]

I do now. So my question is, are Christian Jewish folks allowed to go to temple? Both the Jewish folks and the Christian folks agree with Genesis 3:16 and the parts of the Old testament that these two religions share, both worship the same God, and both are waiting for a Messiah to come with Christian folks believing that they know who it is going to be. But it has been two thousand years now and technically everybody is just waiting to see what is actually real. Back in the day, before Paul, a male had to be circumcised before he could be Christian because you had to be Jewish before you could be Christian. Paul came along and said that you could be Christian and not be circumcised. So from there those that were with the Jewish part of Christianity continued to be circumcised and those that were not a part of the Jewish part of Christianity did not become circumcised and were no longer considered Jewish. To not be circumcised is to deny the Jewish heritage of Jesus and Christianity. My mother chose to not deny that heritage and I chose not to deny that heritage. Obviously my mother and I are wrong and it is good to know these things. Thank you for your input!

What are "Christian Jewish folks"?

 

[Levite]

I do now. So my question is, are Christian Jewish folks allowed to go to temple? Both the Jewish folks and the Christian folks agree with Genesis 3:16 and the parts of the Old testament that these two religions share, both worship the same God, and both are waiting for a Messiah to come with Christian folks believing that they know who it is going to be. But it has been two thousand years now and technically everybody is just waiting to see what is actually real. Back in the day, before Paul, a male had to be circumcised before he could be Christian because you had to be Jewish before you could be Christian. Paul came along and said that you could be Christian and not be circumcised. So from there those that were with the Jewish part of Christianity continued to be circumcised and those that were not a part of the Jewish part of Christianity did not become circumcised and were no longer considered Jewish. To not be circumcised is to deny the Jewish heritage of Jesus and Christianity. My mother chose to not deny that heritage and I chose not to deny that heritage. Obviously my mother and I are wrong and it is good to know these things. Thank you for your input!

"Christian Jews" or "Jewish Christians" are self-contradictory terms. If one is Jewish, one is Jewish, and nothing else. A Jew who practices Christianity is either relinquishing their affiliation with Judaism (though technically, under Jewish Law, there is no leaving the Jewish People), since anyone who has any respect for their Jewishness ought not to be violating its most essential core tenet by practicing another religion, and should thus be called a Christian. And if one is Christian, one is not Jewish, until and unless one converts-- at which point they are no longer a Christian, since conversion involves formally abjuring all other faiths.

People who think they can be both at once are kidding themselves. It doesn't work that way. The two religions are fundamentally theologically irreconcilable; and in any case, Christianity is a religion pure and simple, but Judaism is a socioreligious ethnicity: their rules of identity and affiliation are very different.

 

[roger1440]

A co worker of mine once told me he was half Jewish and half Christian. I then asked him, "Do you believe Jesus was half a Messiah?" He was such easy pry for me. I just couldn't resist, LOL.

 

[CMike]

A co worker of mine once told me he was half Jewish and half Christian. I then asked him, "Do you believe Jesus was half a Messiah?" He was such easy pry for me. I just couldn't resist, LOL.

That was funny. :yes:

 

[Shermana]

"Christian Jews" or "Jewish Christians" are self-contradictory terms. If one is Jewish, one is Jewish, and nothing else. A Jew who practices Christianity is either relinquishing their affiliation with Judaism (though technically, under Jewish Law, there is no leaving the Jewish People), since anyone who has any respect for their Jewishness ought not to be violating its most essential core tenet by practicing another religion, and should thus be called a Christian. And if one is Christian, one is not Jewish, until and unless one converts-- at which point they are no longer a Christian, since conversion involves formally abjuring all other faiths.

People who think they can be both at once are kidding themselves. It doesn't work that way. The two religions are fundamentally theologically irreconcilable; and in any case, Christianity is a religion pure and simple, but Judaism is a socioreligious ethnicity: their rules of identity and affiliation are very different.

Entirely fallacious.

The "Christian Jewish" gospels and writings are called such for a reason.

This logic only applies to the circular concepts within Rabbinicist ideology in an attempt to corner the meaning of the term "Jewish" and "Judaism". That's fine and all, but when it comes to objective conversation, you're going to have to say that all the scholars who refer to early "Jewish Christians" as such are "kidding themselves".

By this logic, all Reform Jews should be considered outside of Judaism for they have by far and large rejected the tenets of Judaism by regulating many of the aspects of the Law to being unnecessary. And thus Kairites as well, despite their small numbers, should be considered non-Jewish. And then there's the Caucasian Mountain Jews and others like the Kaifeng who have historically had no or little contact with Rabbinical authority and don't believe in many of their rulings.

Most Jewish Christians have the upmost respect for the Law and practice it as best as they believe they can interpret it.

Now with that said, many "Messianic Jewish" congregations, are in fact kidding themselves in many respects.

 

[Levite]

Entirely fallacious.

The "Christian Jewish" gospels and writings are called such for a reason.

This logic only applies to the circular concepts within Rabbinicist ideology in an attempt to corner the meaning of the term "Jewish" and "Judaism". That's fine and all, but when it comes to objective conversation, you're going to have to say that all the scholars who refer to early "Jewish Christians" as such are "kidding themselves".

By this logic, all Reform Jews should be considered outside of Judaism for they have by far and large rejected the tenets of Judaism by regulating many of the aspects of the Law to being unnecessary. And thus Kairites as well, despite their small numbers, should be considered non-Jewish. And then there's the Caucasian Mountain Jews and others like the Kaifeng who have historically had no or little contact with Rabbinical authority and don't believe in many of their rulings.

Most Jewish Christians have the upmost respect for the Law and practice it as best as they believe they can interpret it.

Now with that said, many "Messianic Jewish" congregations, are in fact kidding themselves in many respects.

Early Jewish Christians (in the first century of the Common Era) were simply ascetic, apocalyptic Jews who happened to be incorrect about who the messiah was. But they were a short-lived phenomenon, regardless of the individuals who claim today to be reviving their tradition or whatnot. That window closed: the ship sailed. The time passed a long, long while ago when belief in Jesus was not the hallmark of a contradictory, non-Jewish faith.

There is no such thing as "Rabbinism" or whatnot anymore: normative Judaism is Rabbinic Judaism. That's been settled for a long time. Communities that were out of contact long enough to not preserve or to not preserve correctly or to not know about the teachings of the Rabbis are expected to learn and take on those teachings before being considered normative. Those who explicitly reject those teachings in their entirety, like the Karaites, are heretics.

Though an argument can be made for the heretical status of the Reform movement, Conservative authorities and some Modern Orthodox authorities don't deem them technically heretical in that they do not explicitly reject all the teachings of the Rabbis, but rather, claim excessive interpretive authority. A thin distinction, perhaps, but important.

"Jewish Christians," unless they happen to be living in the first century, CE, are kidding themselves. They can call themselves Jewish Christians until they're blue in the face, but it doesn't make the idea any more real or meaningful.

 

[Shermana]

Early Jewish Christians (in the first century of the Common Era) were simply ascetic, apocalyptic Jews who happened to be incorrect about who the messiah was. But they were a short-lived phenomenon, regardless of the individuals who claim today to be reviving their tradition or whatnot. That window closed: the ship sailed. The time passed a long, long while ago when belief in Jesus was not the hallmark of a contradictory, non-Jewish faith.

There is no such thing as "Rabbinism" or whatnot anymore: normative Judaism is Rabbinic Judaism. That's been settled for a long time. Communities that were out of contact long enough to not preserve or to not preserve correctly or to not know about the teachings of the Rabbis are expected to learn and take on those teachings before being considered normative. Those who explicitly reject those teachings in their entirety, like the Karaites, are heretics.

Though an argument can be made for the heretical status of the Reform movement, Conservative authorities and some Modern Orthodox authorities don't deem them technically heretical in that they do not explicitly reject all the teachings of the Rabbis, but rather, claim excessive interpretive authority. A thin distinction, perhaps, but important.

"Jewish Christians," unless they happen to be living in the first century, CE, are kidding themselves. They can call themselves Jewish Christians until they're blue in the face, but it doesn't make the idea any more real or meaningful.

Out of respect for the fact that this is in the DIR and not the debate forums, I will let you have the closing words until this topic rears its head again in an appropriate place.

 

[Harmonious]

I don't know why I have to constantly repeat myself.

The part that is made up by the radical feminists is that Adam had a first wife before Eve. If you look hard enough you can make anything up. They got it from an obscure book that Ramban called a "waste of time"/

However, you can easily prove me wrong. Show me.

Quote from the talmud where it says that Adam had a first wife before Eve, whose name was Lili.

Okay, Mike.

Direct Talmudic References

b. Erubin 18b

Rabbi Jeremia ben Eleazar said, "During those years (after their expulsion from the Garden), in which Adam, the first man, was separated from Eve, he became the father of ghouls and demons and lilin." Rabbi Meir said, "Adam, the first man, being very pious and finding that he had caused death to come into the world, sat fasting for 130 years, and separated himself from his wife for 130 years, and wore fig vines for 130 years. His fathering of evil spirits, referred to here, came as a result of wet dreams. b. Erubin 100b

Lilith grows long hair. b. Nidda 24b

Lilith is a demoness with a human appearance except that she has wings. b. Shab. 151b

Rabbi Hanina said, "One may not sleep alone in a house, for Lilith takes hold of whoever sleeps alone in a house." b. Baba Bathra 73a-b

Rabba bar bar Hana said, "I once saw Hormin, a son of Lilith, running on the battlements of Mahoza.... When the demonic government heard of it, they killed him [for showing himself]." Talmud citations are informed by the translations of I. Epstein. (The Babylonian Talmud. London: Socino Press, 1978) and Raphael Patai, Patai81, pp. 184f.).

Direct Talmudic References

When I state something I almost always back it up. I don't say oh yeah it's in the Mishnah, Talmud, and my rabbi told me. I actually back it up.

I usually try, but sometimes, knowing individuals who know more than I do who say things is often a source that can be good enough for me.

I didn't need to KNOW every last thing about Lilit. It was an interesting footnote.

Other, more enterprising people here DID look it up. One who is wise learns from every source.

However, I am kind of liking that an evil demon is idolized by the radical feminists.

I find that ironic, poetic, and funny as well.

 

[Levite]

I didn't need to KNOW every last thing about Lilit. It was an interesting footnote.

FWIW, though the name Lilit doesn't get used, the midrash of Adam having a first wife before Eve is in Bere**** Rabbah, around chapter 18, I think.

 

[roger1440]

Here is my rendition of Lilith I did over a year ago. Gee, you guys are giving me inspiration to do another one.

http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/327/0/9/lilith_by_roger1440-d5lyrjx.jpg

 

[Harmonious]

FWIW, though the name Lilit doesn't get used, the midrash of Adam having a first wife before Eve is in Bere**** Rabbah, around chapter 18, I think.

Thank you.

 

[CMike]

Okay, Mike.



I usually try, but sometimes, knowing individuals who know more than I do who say things is often a source that can be good enough for me.

That may be good for you.

I don't think that's a good way to learn, especially if you are trying to prove something. The best way is to get the information and present it from the source material.

However, someone who knows more than me hasn't told me.

I stated this now 1001 times so I am going to write it in big type and bold red. Perhaps it will be comprehended.

What I am challenging is that Adam had a wife before Eve called Lilith

What I am challenging is that Adam had a wife before Eve called Lilith


What I am challenging is that Adam had a wife before Eve called Lilith


What I am challenging is that Adam had a wife before Eve called Lilith



By proving it I don't mean any word of Lilit anywhere. I am talking about this specific statement.

In fact, it contradicts it.

Why is this so difficult to fathom? Why do I keep having to repeat this.

I don't know how to make it more clear.

Nothing that you posted stated this.

 

[dantech]

That may be good for you.

However, someone who knows more than me hasn't told me.

I stated this now 1001 times so I am going to write it in big type and bold red. Perhaps it will be comprehended.

What I am challenging is that Adam had a wife before Eve called Lilith

What I am challenging is that Adam had a wife before Eve called Lilith


What I am challenging is that Adam had a wife before Eve called Lilith


What I am challenging is that Adam had a wife before Eve called Lilith



By proving it I don't mean any word of Lilit anywhere. I am talking about this specific statement.

In fact, it contradicts it.

Why is this so difficult to fathom? Why do I keep having to repeat this.

I don't know how to make it more clear.

Nothing that you posted stated this.

I think they understand loud and clear.
Read this please: Lilith, Lady Flying in Darkness - My Jewish Learning
You will see that it isn't written in stone, but there is a Midrash that talks about her being the first wife of Adam, among other things...

This Midrash is in Bere**** Rabbah, as Levite has stated.

EDIT: Nevermind, the person who wrote that article is a woman, she must be a radical feminist.