• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament

ecco

Veteran Member
But these would have been of extreme interest to ancient people if they had existed. They would have studied, explored, and written about them. They would have used the water for their purposes and founded cities and infrastructure near them.

Uh huh.
What does Yellowstone smell like?
Ancient explorers commonly referred to the odor of geysers as the “Smell of Hell.” ... You'll smell this “skunk-like” odor as you approach the geyser basins of Yellowstone,​

Living next to a geyser sounds like a lot of fun.

Do you have any idea what makes a geyser spurt?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
Do you have any idea what makes a geyser spurt?

The ancients called it "i3.t-wt.t" (’Iḫ.t-wt.t).

2109. The sky trembles, the earth quakes before the god, before N.
2110a. N. [is not enveloped] by the earth;
2110b. Iḫ.t-wt.t, thou art not enveloped by the earth.
2110c. Thy fame is by day; thy fear is by night, as a god, lord of f ear.
2110d. Thou commandest the gods like the mighty one, chief of the mighty.
2111. [O] Osiris, the overflow comes, the inundation hastens, Geb groans.

At night it collected in low lying areas and killed all types of animals including, of course, humans.

We know it as "CO2" and they knew it as "risings begetter" because it caused bread and cake to rise as well as foam to rise in beer and bubbles to rise in wine. It caused osiris to rise and by means of the arms of tefnut it made the pyramid to rise. When it is not enveloped by the earth it caused the power of the water above to equal that below.

8) With great capacity it ascends from earth to heaven. Again it descends to earth, and takes back the power of the above and the below.

Cool effervescent water is still the finest water and mixed with a little natron (mostly sodium decahydrate) it made an excellent soap for cleaning ears and stinky feet.

All human history unfolds when ancient writing is taken literally and at face value.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The ancients called it "i3.t-wt.t" (’Iḫ.t-wt.t).

2109. The sky trembles, the earth quakes before the god, before N.
2110a. N. [is not enveloped] by the earth;
2110b. Iḫ.t-wt.t, thou art not enveloped by the earth.
2110c. Thy fame is by day; thy fear is by night, as a god, lord of f ear.
2110d. Thou commandest the gods like the mighty one, chief of the mighty.
2111. [O] Osiris, the overflow comes, the inundation hastens, Geb groans.

At night it collected in low lying areas and killed all types of animals including, of course, humans.

We know it as "CO2" and they knew it as "risings begetter" because it caused bread and cake to rise as well as foam to rise in beer and bubbles to rise in wine. It caused osiris to rise and by means of the arms of tefnut it made the pyramid to rise. When it is not enveloped by the earth it caused the power of the water above to equal that below.

8) With great capacity it ascends from earth to heaven. Again it descends to earth, and takes back the power of the above and the below.

Cool effervescent water is still the finest water and mixed with a little natron (mostly sodium decahydrate) it made an excellent soap for cleaning ears and stinky feet.

All human history unfolds when ancient writing is taken literally and at face value.


Ancient explorers commonly referred to the odor of geysers as the “Smell of Hell.” Doesn’t sound like much of a ringing endorsement for visiting the famous geysers of Yellowstone does it? This may have been a bit of an exaggeration, but geysers do emit a bit of a stench due to the elevated levels of sulfuric acid and hydrogen sulfide gas contained within the geysers themselves.
Why Do the Yellowstone Geysers Smell? | BrushBuck Wildlife ...
brushbucktours.com/blog/why-the-yellowstone-geysers-smell/
 

ecco

Veteran Member
We are in the same boat (or Ark) so to speak, except I am not obsessively telling others that their beliefs are wrong.
Well, you keep insisting your beliefs are right. That implies that the beliefs of people who believe differently are wrong.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
So either continue being a hypocrite or pleas link to papers giving evidence that time can exist differently in deep space. Or reasons why it would/could be different.
So far it's just a ridiculous idea based on no science.

You even know that after it arrives it then acts like "our" time.
Please post links to papers explaining the lines of evidence for this.
I don't think Dad has had the time to properly write his papers on the subject. Possibly he will in the near future. He will be the only person with whom I have ever communicated on this forum to accept an award in Stockholm.
 

JesusKnowsYou

Active Member
I would say come out of the bronze age.

Genesis can be read as a history of the origins of the Jews. They alone are descendants of Adam or as a story about the transition from hunter gatherers to agriculture.
You should at least understand what you criticize.

According to the Genesis account, Adam is the father of all Mankind. We all descend from him, not just the Jews.

The Genesis account also does not describe any transition. According to that text, Adam and his children raised both crops and domesticated animals.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
You should at least understand what you criticize.

According to the Genesis account, Adam is the father of all Mankind. We all descend from him, not just the Jews.

The Genesis account also does not describe any transition. According to that text, Adam and his children raised both crops and domesticated animals.
I think his point is that one can regard the Garden of Eden as a hunter-gatherer existence, whereas the sweat-of-your-brow existence after the Fall could be seen as referring to agriculture.

In fact, I had not thought of it before but I wonder if Yuval Noah Harari's contention, in "Sapiens", that the hunter-gather existence was less labour-intensive than agriculture, may have been subconsciously shaped by Genesis. It's a thought.
 

sooda

Veteran Member
You should at least understand what you criticize.

According to the Genesis account, Adam is the father of all Mankind. We all descend from him, not just the Jews.

The Genesis account also does not describe any transition. According to that text, Adam and his children raised both crops and domesticated animals.

Many people believe that the Jews are descended from Adam. .. and there were already other humans on earth.. Remember Cain married and built a city.

And, yes many believe that God accepted the blood sacrifice from Able but not the harvest from Cain.

If you are LDS you must believe in Joseph Smith and Moroni.
 

dad

Undefeated
Firmament | Definition of Firmament at Dictionary.com

Dictionary.com Is The World’s Favorite Online Dictionaryfirmament
mid-13c., from Latin firmamentum "firmament," literally "a support or strengthening," from firmus "firm" (see firm (adj.)), used in Vulgate to translate Greek stereoma "firm or solid structure," which …

Definition of firmament | Dictionary.com
The original Hebrew meant this..

extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament
  1. expanse (flat as base, support)
  2. firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
So it is an expanse in which the sun and moon and stars are. I doubt anyone thought it was metal like. That is foolishness.


 

dad

Undefeated
Again, funny that you try to insult science by calling it religion. You make this easy by demonstrating "religion" simply means hooey based on only beliefs.
Some beliefs are well based.

And again, you need evidence to propose an alternate theory.
You may think you don't (more beliefs) but you lose. You can believe what you like, you still have shown no evidence and have failed at showing why your alternative would be possible.
When something is demonstrated to be unknown, no one is under obligation to make stuff up.

Einstiens equivalence principle as well as relativity show there is no special reference frame in the universe.

"
The Einstein equivalence principle
What is now called the "Einstein equivalence principle" states that the weak equivalence principle holds, and that: The outcome of any local non-gravitational experiment in a freely falling laboratory is independent of the velocity of the laboratory and its location in spacetime."
When you get something to free fall in a laboratory on the far side of the universe get nack to us. Meanwhile that remains a fishbowl principle.

Lorentz Invariance states that the laws of physics remain constant for all observers within the same inertial frame.

Observations of a quasar about 6 billion light years from Earth have shown that one of the fundamental properties of physics is the same there as here. Astrophysicists measured the ratio of the electron mass to the proton mass in the distant quasar and found the protons there are 1836.15 more massive than the electrons, the same value as here on Earth now.
The reason they thought it was massive is that they assumed time existed uniformly. Circular. They also saw it only here on earth! In all ways it is religion.

If you want to say "time" might be different you do need a theory. You need evidence to suggest something else.
False. If science does not know, that ends it!

But in the last post you couldn't deal with the fact that photons do not travel in the time vector
Try not to ignore that whatever protons do or do not do here in our time and space is not in discussion. Your so-called time vector is mental gymnastics to cover the fact you have no clue what time is.
So it's ok when you do it but demand evidence from others? That's not cool, why would you act like that toward others when you don't apply the standard to yourself?
Others who make science claims must bear the burden of supporting them with physical evidence. Failing that, the claims are garbage beliefs.
The beliefs of bible believers are supported in ways that they should be, and science is not involved.
 

dad

Undefeated
Cool, you keep asking for evidence from other people.
For science claims the evidence is required.

You even know that after it arrives it then acts like "our" time.
Please post links to papers explaining the lines of evidence for this.
The only place light is seen is here. If you claim otherwise post the papers.

Historical records show no evidence of this changing time.
Great, I do not think it changed on earth...so? The issue in space is not time changing but existing at all in the way we know it.

Scripture is ..
Your opinion on Scripture doesn't matter here.

Produce some evidence. There are passages in scripture that did not come to pass.
The future prophesies would not be fulfilled yet.

They were going to rule all nations and all nations would bow to their god.
We will.

You can question science but you do it with theories. Where is your paper on variable time?
Why would I have a paper on something you just made up?


Again, what evidence supports the idea that time can possibly be different and how would this effect a photon which experiences zero time?
Exactly. How would we know what the photon would be like in deep space having only seen it here? Science has tried to conceptualize time for math and theories. It does not know what time is.

your post was too long...to be continued
 

sooda

Veteran Member
The original Hebrew meant this..

extended surface (solid), expanse, firmament
  1. expanse (flat as base, support)
  2. firmament (of vault of heaven supporting waters above)
So it is an expanse in which the sun and moon and stars are. I doubt anyone thought it was metal like. That is foolishness.


Solid doesn't mean metal necessarily.
 

dad

Undefeated
If you have some evidence that photons can possibly not move at light speed than where is it
No idea what you are talking about. How would light not move at the speed of light? The issue is how much time is involved in moving in far space. You assumed the same amount of time was used there. Religion.
If you just pull that idea out of your butt and then ask for evidence of others you are a ridiculous hypocrite to the point of crazy-person.
The only idea here is asking you to prove claims about time and what it is like in deep space. It is crazy to claim science with no ability to grasp or support it here.
so now you need to support another ad-hoc crap idea that photons can move at a different speed and your evidence is "it has to because the fiction I believe won't be real if not"
Where? Here? Here they move in our time. In deep space? No one knows how much time is involved with anything moving out there.

Ha, you just posted evidence for my argument but are unaware to the point of not even realizing it.
You are confused and try to confuse others.
In 4 vector photons move entirely in the 3 space vectors and zero in the time vector.
Blather. Everything moves in time and space. The only space and time you know is here. Stop projecting.
  1. "spatial speed affects temporal speed
In the fishbowl, yes.

In your case, as you start moving faster in the spatial dimensions, you have to slow down in the temporal dimension, because the magnitude of the four vector has to be c always.
Utter nonsense! C simply denotes the time involved in light moving! If light is here in the area of the earth and solar system, it moves at a known speed. Anywhere else...forget about it...unknown.

This is the very reason that we talk about spacetime, and not space and time. This is the very re .ason that spacetime consists of causally linked space and time.
Then you better stop cause you have no idea what you are talking about as relates to the far universe

As you realize that your relative speed in the spatial dimensions affects your relative speed in the temporal dimension, you realize that space and time are not independent anymore.
No. In the far universe that is not known. You seek to apply fishbowl realities elsewhere.

Your example is about spatial speed affecting your temporal speed. But the two are causally linked the other way around too."
Rubbish. All speed is just things moving in space and time. If time were different obviously speed would not be the same.
So you looked up 4 vector and actually posted a scientific quote. Even though it was misused you do understand evidence (you just tried to use it).
So now post your evidence for your ideas about photons, relativity and such "changing" in deep space.
No need. You either know or not. You do not. I win.
spacetime exists in the entire universe,
In your dreams.
relativity doesn't say "just for Earth" the theory is for all spacetime which once was all confined to one small spot.
Relativity needs to do more than imagine observers at polar ends of the universe and declare what they would observe! They are clueless. Relativity is only relative to the fishbowl.

No, post the re-vamped equations for me, explain how you propose light would work at a different velocity. You will need special relativity as well.
Explain your evidence for why you think light would change velocity?
Very simple. Light must move in space and time. The time that exists where it moves determines how much time moving will involve! Elementary.
The laws of physics work the same across the universe. Nothing would work, stars would not form, everything would not work.
Time is not a law of physics.
But if you even had a theory as to why the laws would change but you don't so this is a waste of time. You have already lost.
I am not concerned with laws out in the far universe and have no claims that they change or not. Get a grip.
The light is evidence. So now produce counter evidence to believe the light is wrong. If not your just a joker wasting time.
Screaming foolishness. The light moving here in the area of earth is only evidence of how much time it takes to move here.
Martyrs in other religions? You think there have never been martyrs in other religions?

Yes there has. There has also been terrorists using the name martyr. So?


All evidence points to space and time being he same across the universe.
Nothing at all actually. You seek to declare light moving HERE as evidence of how much time it takes to move elsewhere. Religious fanaticism.

If one was to even believe it would be different you first need a scientific theory to explain why it would be different and if it's even possible.
You would just need the honesty to admit you have no idea about anything out of your tiny fishbowl area.

You have to start with a theory of electromagnetism that even allows or has a reason to suspect it could vary. Same with special relativity.
Produce scientific evidence rather than beliefs.
False. All theories of electro...anything are fishbowl theories. You need to prove that time exists the same in the far universe or you lose. Period.
Nope. Evidence. Special relativity says as velocity increases time slows.
It can say whatever it likes. It is ignorant and fishbowl bound.

You cannot extend time as we know it to deep space. If you could we would not be seeing this desperate flailing around.

We have tested this with atomic clocks, particle decay and other types of dillation have also been proven with gps systems in space.
In the fishbowl only. Period.

So what relativity predicts has come true.
In this earth and solar system sure. It applies here. As for the deep universe, that is totally open to debate.

I've never seen anything so hypocritical ever. But good that you just admitted religion is just beliefs based hooey.
Your religion..yes. Well-founded ones...no.
 
Top