Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament

[gnostic]

You thought Moses lived after the exile!? Ha.

No, dad.

Moses didn’t write the Exodus, or any other books (eg Genesis, Numbers, Leviticus).

With Genesis, there were no single author. There were multiple authors, writing parts of Genesis, and were to put together by the priesthood during the Exile.

There are two versions of creation: Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 (& 3). Genesis 2 is actually older than Genesis 1.

The former (Genesis 2) was most likely composed by Josiah’s scribes and priests, but the later was written after the fall of Jerusalem, after 587 BCE, by the exiled priests, who wrote another version of creation (eg Genesis 1), and put them together 1 & 2.

 

[sooda]

No, dad.

Moses didn’t write the Exodus, or any other books (eg Genesis, Numbers, Leviticus).

With Genesis, there were no single author. There were multiple authors, writing parts of Genesis, and were to put together by the priesthood during the Exile.

There are two versions of creation: Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 (& 3). Genesis 2 is actually older than Genesis 1.

The former (Genesis 2) was most likely composed by Josiah’s scribes and priests, but the later was written after the fall of Jerusalem, after 587 BCE, by the exiled priests, who wrote another version of creation (eg Genesis 1), and put them together 1 & 2.

@ dad

Josiah was 7th century BC..


Josiah - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josiah
Josiah or Yoshiyahu was a seventh-century BCE king of Judah who, according to the Hebrew Bible, instituted major religious reforms. Josiah is credited by most biblical scholars with having established or compiled important Hebrew Scriptures during the "Deuteronomic reform" which probably occurred during his rule. Josiah became king of Judah at the age of eight, after the assassination of his father, King Amon, and reigned for thirty-one years, from 641/640 to 610/609 BCE. Josiah is known only fr

 

[dad]

dad.

Do you have a better article than this crap?

I am interested in the finding, but the Independent's article by Andrew Griffin is lacking in details.

It doesn't give precise date in the burnt scroll from Ein Gedi.

About 2000 years old, is precise, because the Septuagint is dated to about 280 BCE, the oldest Dead Sea Scrolls, is the Great Isaiah Scroll (GIS), found in first cave (Cave 1) discovered at Qumran caves. This GIS has been dated to 356 BCE.

And it doesn't give provide much details what parts of Leviticus. How much of Ein Gedi's Leviticus survived?

Is this Ein Gedi's scroll older than the Qumran's Isaiah scroll? How much older?

Unless you can find a better source than the Independent article, I cannot assess if it is indeed the oldest.

The dead sea scrolls are dated to the second and third centuries BC.

"Yet many scholars are convinced that at least parts of the Bible had been written down hundreds of years earlier, by the 8th or 7th century B.C.E. — or even earlier. We just don't have any evidence because of the medium the ancient scribes used."
Why no truly ancient Bible writings have been found

 

[dad]

No.. Genesis and Exodus were written 800 years AFTER Moses.

Nice claim. Back it up.

 

[dad]

No, dad.

Moses didn’t write the Exodus, or any other books (eg Genesis, Numbers, Leviticus).

With Genesis, there were no single author. There were multiple authors, writing parts of Genesis, and were to put together by the priesthood during the Exile.

There are two versions of creation: Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 (& 3). Genesis 2 is actually older than Genesis 1.

The former (Genesis 2) was most likely composed by Josiah’s scribes and priests, but the later was written after the fall of Jerusalem, after 587 BCE, by the exiled priests, who wrote another version of creation (eg Genesis 1), and put them together 1 & 2.

Gen 2 is not another version at all. It is just details filled in on what already was done by the previous chapter. If you claim that you know who authored the first books of the bible, give us the proof.

 

[gnostic]

Gen 2 is not another version at all. It is just details filled in on what already was done by the previous chapter. If you claim that you know who authored the first books of the bible, give us the proof.

You don’t even understand the Bible that you read and that you believe in.

Genesis 1 & 2 are in complete contradictions of each other.

In Genesis 1, it say God created -

1. vegetation first (3rd day), 1:11-12,
2. follow by birds (5th day), 1:20-21,
3. follow by land animals (6th day), 1:24-25,
4. then humans, both male and female (6th day), 1:26-28.

That’s the order of creation in Genesis 1.

Humans - both male and female - were clearly created together in Genesis 1:27. I will say more later.

On the other hand, Genesis 2, it clearly stated:

In the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no one to till the ground;

No vegetation yet, then starting from verse 2:7, God created in the following in different order to Genesis 1:

1. man (from dust), first, (2:7)
2. follow by vegetation (eg. a garden in Eden), (2:8-9)
3. next, land animals and birds together, (2:19)
4. and then lastly, woman (2:21-23).

So do you not see, that Genesis 1 & 2 don’t agree with each other.

It does say there were no vegetation whatsoever in 2:4-5, and God didn’t create vegetation (2:8-9) UNTIL AFTER creating man from dust (2:7).

Whereas Genesis 1, clearly stated that humans were created together, male and female, Genesis 2 say god created man, first (2:7), woman, last (2:21-23).

You would have be utterly and selectively blind to not see these contradictions, and that they clearly have two versions of creation.

It is clear to me, that Genesis 1 & 2, have two different groups of authors, who composed 2 different versions, and the last group (the ones who wrote Genesis 1) put together the earlier version (Genesis 2) with their own version (Genesis 1).

You are completely incompetent when it come to biblical scholarship.

 

[gnostic]

The dead sea scrolls are dated to the second and third centuries BC.

"Yet many scholars are convinced that at least parts of the Bible had been written down hundreds of years earlier, by the 8th or 7th century B.C.E. — or even earlier. We just don't have any evidence because of the medium the ancient scribes used."
Why no truly ancient Bible writings have been found

King Josiah is in the 7th century BCE.

There are no evidence that any biblical texts were written prior to Josiah’s reign.

And even if there were earlier texts composed in the 8th century BCE, but were lost or destroyed, Moses still didn’t live in the 8th century BCE, and therefore he didn’t write the Genesis, Exodus, Numbers and Leviticus.

No, there are evidences that biblical texts in the 2nd half of 7th century BCE, none exist before Josiah’s time.

So unless you can present evidence that there are older texts, you are simply basing Moses writing the Genesis and Exodus, on nothing more than personal faith.

And you haven’t addressed my points, on the news article you cited, from Independent website.

The burned scroll found Ein Gedi isn’t older than the older Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls from the Qumran caves.

The En-Gedi scroll has been dated to 3rd or 4th century CE, hence it was after Jesus, not before Jesus.

Clearly, the En-Gedi scroll isn’t the “oldest biblical text ever”, which the article say.

Now, unless you show Moses lived after Jesus, then I am afraid that you are reading too much into article that exaggerated discovery without verifying Andrew Griffin’s claim.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

I think his point is that one can regard the Garden of Eden as a hunter-gatherer existence, whereas the sweat-of-your-brow existence after the Fall could be seen as referring to agriculture.

In fact, I had not thought of it before but I wonder if Yuval Noah Harari's contention, in "Sapiens", that the hunter-gather existence was less labour-intensive than agriculture, may have been subconsciously shaped by Genesis. It's a thought.

Interesting stuff.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

Many people believe that the Jews are descended from Adam. .. and there were already other humans on earth.. Remember Cain married and built a city.

Anyone who believes that the Genesis account records actual history would believe that all of Mankind descend from Adam because it records that he was the first and only human being until the creation of Eve, his wife.

The Genesis account never claimed to be a complete record of all human history and other accounts of the same events claim that Adam and Eve had many many children. This stands to reason considering that they were recorded to have lived nearly a thousand years.

Cain married one of his sisters and he convinced others among his siblings and their children to leave Adam and build their city in the land of Nod.

I don't see any reason to assume that there were other human beings on the planet outside of the family of Adam and Eve.

And, yes many believe that God accepted the blood sacrifice from Able but not the harvest from Cain.

If Cain had offered up a blood sacrifice as Abel did, God would have also accepted it.

However, Cain was prideful and did not want to go to Abel to obtain an offering, he also loved Satan more than God and offered up the first fruits of the field because Satan had commanded him to do it.

It's just as God said to Cain,

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." (Genesis 4:7)

God admonished Cain to do good and warned him about his relationship with Satan.

If you are LDS you must believe in Joseph Smith and Moroni.

I believe that Joseph Smith Jr. was a prophet and servant of the Lord Jesus Christ and we regard him much like how the Jews regard Moses.

Moroni was a prophet/historian who sealed up the record of his people that would later be translated by Joseph Smith Jr. and it's called the Book or Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

It was this same Moroni who visited Joseph Smith Jr. as an angel and directed him to where the ancient record had been deposited.

 

[sooda]

Anyone who believes that the Genesis account records actual history would believe that all of Mankind descend from Adam because it records that he was the first and only human being until the creation of Eve, his wife.

The Genesis account never claimed to be a complete record of all human history and other accounts of the same events claim that Adam and Eve had many many children. This stands to reason considering that they were recorded to have lived nearly a thousand years.

Cain married one of his sisters and he convinced others among his siblings and their children to leave Adam and build their city in the land of Nod.

I don't see any reason to assume that there were other human beings on the planet outside of the family of Adam and Eve.

If Cain had offered up a blood sacrifice as Abel did, God would have also accepted it.

However, Cain was prideful and did not want to go to Abel to obtain an offering, he also loved Satan more than God and offered up the first fruits of the field because Satan had commanded him to do it.

It's just as God said to Cain,

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." (Genesis 4:7)

God admonished Cain to do good and warned him about his relationship with Satan.

I believe that Joseph Smith Jr. was a prophet and servant of the Lord Jesus Christ and we regard him much like how the Jews regard Moses.

Moroni was a prophet/historian who sealed up the record of his people that would later be translated by Joseph Smith Jr. and it's called the Book or Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.

It was this same Moroni who visited Joseph Smith Jr. as an angel and directed him to where the ancient record had been deposited.

"The Genesis account never claimed to be a complete record of all human history and other accounts of the same events claim that Adam and Eve had many many children. This stands to reason considering that they were recorded to have lived nearly a thousand years."

LOLOL. OK.. You believe that they were recorded to live nearly a thousand years.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

AKA a fundamentalist. If not by association, certainly by your writing.

Not at all.

This entire OP has been a discussion about strictly the "Genesis account of Creation", therefore, I have been trying to limit my comments to only what that specific account records.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that the Bible is the Word of God as long as it is translated and interpreted correctly.

We do not, however, believe that it is a complete and perfect record. Centuries of abuse and error have entered into it's pages.

Also, just so you know, in regards to Latter-day Saints, a "Fundamentalist" would be a reference to the FLDS (ever hear of Warren Jeffs?) and I would consider it very offensive to refer to me as such.

I understand what you meant when you claimed that I was a fundamentalist, but you can't claim that a Latter-day Saint is "AKA a fundamentalist" without the possibility of offending someone.

 

[sooda]

Not at all.

This entire OP has been a discussion about strictly the "Genesis account of Creation", therefore, I have been trying to limit my comments to only what that specific account records.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that the Bible is the Word of God as long as it is translated and interpreted correctly.

We do not, however, believe that it is a complete and perfect record. Centuries of abuse and error have entered into it's pages.

Also, just so you know, in regards to Latter-day Saints, a "Fundamentalist" would be a reference to the FLDS (ever hear of Warren Jeffs?) and I would consider it very offensive to refer to me as such.

I understand what you meant when you claimed that I was a fundamentalist, but you can't claim that a Latter-day Saint is "AKA a fundamentalist" without the possibility of offending someone.

Broadly, fundamentalism has NOTHING to do with Jeff Warren or his ilk.

 

[Audie]

Not at all.

This entire OP has been a discussion about strictly the "Genesis account of Creation", therefore, I have been trying to limit my comments to only what that specific account records.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that the Bible is the Word of God as long as it is translated and interpreted correctly.

We do not, however, believe that it is a complete and perfect record. Centuries of abuse and error have entered into it's pages.

Also, just so you know, in regards to Latter-day Saints, a "Fundamentalist" would be a reference to the FLDS (ever hear of Warren Jeffs?) and I would consider it very offensive to refer to me as such.

I understand what you meant when you claimed that I was a fundamentalist, but you can't claim that a Latter-day Saint is "AKA a fundamentalist" without the possibility of offending someone.

And everyone is guided "of" god to a different
flawless interpretation.

"As long as it is interpreted correctly" means a Marvel comic
can be the inerrant word of god ifn ya read it right.

If you have led yourself to think A and E are
as told in genesis, that there was a flood etc
you have gone into the deep waters of self deception.

 

[gnostic]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that the Bible is the Word of God as long as it is translated and interpreted correctly.

Who would have the right translation and interpretation?

The Catholic's translation and interpretation? The Greek Orthodox's version? The Protestant's?

The LDS's version?

In all different interpretations and different translations of the Genesis creation, creationists have the tendencies to ignore the Hebrew texts and ignore the Jewish interpretations.

After all, the Genesis was originally intended for the ancient Jews or Israelites in mind, not for Christians.

And yet, we have creationists twisting the Genesis beyond the original contexts.

And if I remember correctly, the LDS version of the Bible was re-written by Joseph Smith, from the King James Bible (KJV). Smith didn't do a new translation from the Greek or Hebrew sources, eg the Septuagint and Masoretic Text, respectively. What Smith did was editing and paraphrasing the KJV.

According to LDS stance, Smith corrected the Old Testament. But how can Smith possibly corrected anything, if he cannot read Hebrew or Greek?

The original KJV translation of the Old Testament, particularly the Genesis, were mostly based on the Masoretic Text (more specifically the Leningrad Codex), where the Septuagint (Codex Vaticanus) wasn’t used at all in Genesis.

So whose interpretations to use, is matter of either personal preference or your church’s preference.

 

[dad]

You don’t even understand the Bible that you read and that you believe in.

Genesis 1 & 2 are in complete contradictions of each other.

In Genesis 1, it say God created -

1. vegetation first (3rd day), 1:11-12,
2. follow by birds (5th day), 1:20-21,
3. follow by land animals (6th day), 1:24-25,
4. then humans, both male and female (6th day), 1:26-28

1. Correct, that is the created order.

That’s the order of creation in Genesis 1.

Humans - both male and female - were clearly created together in Genesis 1:27. I will say more later.

Correct.

On the other hand, Genesis 2, it clearly stated:



No vegetation yet, then starting from verse 2:7, God created in the following in different order to Genesis 1:

1. man (from dust), first, (2:7)
2. follow by vegetation (eg. a garden in Eden), (2:8-9)
3. next, land animals and birds together, (2:19)
4. and then lastly, woman (2:21-23).

So do you not see, that Genesis 1 & 2 don’t agree with each other.

It was NOT on the other hand but the same hand, because the first verse in chapter states it was all finished. What we read in chapter two is about what was already done, not some other creation or order of creation.

It does say there were no vegetation whatsoever in 2:4-5, and God didn’t create vegetation (2:8-9) UNTIL AFTER creating man from dust (2:7).

The order was given in chapter one. The details are not presented in chronological order in chapter two.

Whereas Genesis 1, clearly stated that humans were created together, male and female, Genesis 2 say god created man, first (2:7), woman, last (2:21-23).

They were. Chapter 2 explains how they were made that day. Eve was taken from the woman.

You would have be utterly and selectively blind to not see these contradictions, and that they clearly have two versions of creation.

The opposite is true, one would be blind to see contradictions.

It is clear to me, that Genesis 1 & 2, have two different groups of authors, who composed 2 different versions, and the last group (the ones who wrote Genesis 1) put together the earlier version (Genesis 2) with their own version (Genesis 1).

In your head it may seem clear.

You are completely incompetent when it come to biblical scholarship.

From someone who doesn't know which end is up, or the end from the beginning, I'll take that as a compliment.

 

[dad]

King Josiah is in the 7th century BCE.

There are no evidence that any biblical texts were written prior to Josiah’s reign.

And even if there were earlier texts composed in the 8th century BCE, but were lost or destroyed, Moses still didn’t live in the 8th century BCE, and therefore he didn’t write the Genesis, Exodus, Numbers and Leviticus.

No, there are evidences that biblical texts in the 2nd half of 7th century BCE, none exist before Josiah’s time.

So unless you can present evidence that there are older texts, you are simply basing Moses writing the Genesis and Exodus, on nothing more than personal faith.

And you haven’t addressed my points, on the news article you cited, from Independent website.

The burned scroll found Ein Gedi isn’t older than the older Septuagint and the Dead Sea Scrolls from the Qumran caves.

The En-Gedi scroll has been dated to 3rd or 4th century CE, hence it was after Jesus, not before Jesus.

Clearly, the En-Gedi scroll isn’t the “oldest biblical text ever”, which the article say.

Now, unless you show Moses lived after Jesus, then I am afraid that you are reading too much into article that exaggerated discovery without verifying Andrew Griffin’s claim.

If Moses wrote Genesis, then his account would be no older than the time he lived. However God had the record before Mo was born of course. In the days before Babel, it is questionable and even doubtful that man had any written records at all, just the more accurate records of experiences passed down by verbal communications. I suspect that writing, such as the earliest writings like heirioglyhics are a post Babel thing!

 

[gnostic]

If Cain had offered up a blood sacrifice as Abel did, God would have also accepted it.

However, Cain was prideful and did not want to go to Abel to obtain an offering, he also loved Satan more than God and offered up the first fruits of the field because Satan had commanded him to do it.

It's just as God said to Cain,

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." (Genesis 4:7)

God admonished Cain to do good and warned him about his relationship with Satan.

Here, you are conjecturing, or making things up.

There is no Satan in Genesis 4.

How would you know Cain love Satan? How do you know there is relationship between Cain and Satan?

You are adding things that are not there.

 

[gnostic]

It was NOT on the other hand but the same hand, because the first verse in chapter states it was all finished. What we read in chapter two is about what was already done, not some other creation or order of creation.

I have quoted already 2:4-5, and it clearly stated that there were no vegetation whatsoever when god created Adam (2:7).

That’s conducting 1:11-12 (vegetation) and 1:26-28.

Genesis 2 is clearly giving a different chronological order to Genesis 1.

In 2, god created Adam before vegetation, before land animals and birds.

You really need to learn to grasp Genesis 2, because clearly your reading comprehension is appalling. You only see what you believe, instead of actually reading the texts - what they are actually saying.

Passages 2:4-5 and 2:7 are in contradictions to Genesis 1 narrative.

 

[gnostic]

If Moses wrote Genesis, then his account would be no older than the time he lived. However God had the record before Mo was born of course. In the days before Babel, it is questionable and even doubtful that man had any written records at all, just the more accurate records of experiences passed down by verbal communications. I suspect that writing, such as the earliest writings like heirioglyhics are a post Babel thing!

That total bs, because we do know cuneiform writings from Sumerians and Akkadians, predated Babylon.

And Egyptian hieroglyphs and hieratic also predated Babylon.

Second there were never any Tower of Babel. It is a myth, no such structure exist.

Sumerian and Egyptian culture predated the 3rd millennium BCE.

You are only making things up with this whole post-Babel, since there weren’t any Tower of Babel.

The largest ancient structure in Babylon was the ziggurat, called Etemenanki, and that wasn’t built until the 14th century BCE at the earliest (the youngest date is 8th century BCE).

Some modern historians believed that the this ziggurat in Babylon (Etemenanki), was the inspiration for Genesis’ Tower of Babel. But if Moses did lived in the 15th century BCE, then this ziggurat was built a century or more, after Moses.

 

[ecco]

Not at all.

This entire OP has been a discussion about strictly the "Genesis account of Creation", therefore, I have been trying to limit my comments to only what that specific account records.

OK.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes that the Bible is the Word of God as long as it is translated and interpreted correctly.

Yeah. I hear that from all manner of believer who all believe only they and theirs can understand the Word of God properly. Their translations and interpretations are different from your translations and interpretations yet you all believe that YOU have it right.

We do not, however, believe that it is a complete and perfect record. Centuries of abuse and error have entered into it's pages.

OK. But that didn't stop you from making comments like...

other accounts of the same events claim that Adam and Eve had many many children.

What other accounts?​

This stands to reason considering that they were recorded to have lived nearly a thousand years.

Who recorded that?​

Cain married one of his sisters and he convinced others among his siblings and their children to leave Adam and build their city in the land of Nod.

Where is it written that Cain married one of his sisters?​

I don't see any reason to assume that there were other human beings on the planet outside of the family of Adam and Eve.

​

Also, just so you know, in regards to Latter-day Saints, a "Fundamentalist" would be a reference to the FLDS (ever hear of Warren Jeffs?) and I would consider it very offensive to refer to me as such.
I understand what you meant when you claimed that I was a fundamentalist, but you can't claim that a Latter-day Saint is "AKA a fundamentalist" without the possibility of offending someone.

You have a fundamentalist belief in the literal truth of Genesis. That makes you a fundamentalist in terms of the general population. If you have a different notion of it within your sect, well, I shouldn't be expected to keep up with the differences.