Genesis Account of Creation: Firmament

[dad]

I have quoted already 2:4-5, and it clearly stated that there were no vegetation whatsoever when god created Adam (2:7).

Not true, verse seven says nothing about that. You simply ignore the fact that the order was given in chapter one and try to act as if everything mentioned in 2 was in creation order. No.

Genesis 2 is clearly giving a different chronological order to Genesis 1.

Your confusion lies in the fact that chap 2 is not any chronological order at all. Just a fleshing out of some details on what was done already.
Period.

 

[dad]

That total bs, because we do know cuneiform writings from Sumerians and Akkadians, predated Babylon.

And Egyptian hieroglyphs and hieratic also predated Babylon.

Your dates are a myth!

Second there were never any Tower of Babel. It is a myth, no such structure exist.

It was after that time when the nature change and subsequent worldwide plate movements occurred. Probably plowed under/subducted!

Sumerian and Egyptian culture predated the 3rd millennium BCE.

You might as well talk about the tooth fairy as recite dream dates.

The largest ancient structure in Babylon was the ziggurat, called Etemenanki, and that wasn’t built until the 14th century BCE at the earliest (the youngest date is 8th century BCE).

Mickey mouse little attempted copies of the original tower.

Some modern historians believed that the this ziggurat in Babylon (Etemenanki), was the inspiration for Genesis’ Tower of Babel.

Clueless.

But if Moses did lived in the 15th century BCE, then this ziggurat was built a century or more, after Moses.

Show how you date it..hahaha

 

[gnostic]

Not true, verse seven says nothing about that. You simply ignore the fact that the order was given in chapter one and try to act as if everything mentioned in 2 was in creation order. No.

Your confusion lies in the fact that chap 2 is not any chronological order at all. Just a fleshing out of some details on what was done already.
Period.

Wow, you are truly selectively blind.

Here is the whole passage from 2:4-8, from creation of earth to creation of Eden, color-coded into different colors:

In the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, 5 when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up—for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no one to till the ground; 6 but a stream would rise from the earth, and water the whole face of the ground— 7 then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being. 8 And the Lord God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

2:5 says there were no plants or vegetation on earth.

2:7: says God created man from dust when there was no vegetation.

2:8 then say God created vegetation, the Garden of Eden, and then put man.

That's very different from Genesis 1, where it say God created vegetation, on the 3rd day, and created both man and woman last, on the 6th day, but only after creating land animals.

But in Genesis 2, land animals and birds were created after creating man, which also contradict 1:20-21 with creation of birds and 1:24-25, where it created land animals.

Two completely different orders of events, hence two different creation myths.

Seriously man, you read need to read them as you see them, instead of the way you wish it to be. Wishes are woo.

 

[dad]

Wow, you are truly selectively blind.

Here is the whole passage from 2:4-8, from creation of earth to creation of Eden, color-coded into different colors:


2:5 says there were no plants or vegetation on earth.

2:7: says God created man from dust when there was no vegetation.

2:8 then say God created vegetation, the Garden of Eden, and then put man.

That's very different from Genesis 1, where it say God created vegetation, on the 3rd day, and created both man and woman last, on the 6th day, but only after creating land animals.

But in Genesis 2, land animals and birds were created after creating man, which also contradict 1:20-21 with creation of birds and 1:24-25, where it created land animals.

Two completely different orders of events, hence two different creation myths.

Seriously man, you read need to read them as you see them, instead of the way you wish it to be. Wishes are woo.

Chapter two is not any chronological order. Refusing to see it will continue to confuse you.

 

[gnostic]

Chapter two is not any chronological order. Refusing to see it will continue to confuse you.

That is really a matter of your personal opinions.

I am not confused at all. I can see what Genesis 2 is clearly saying. I haven’t changed a single context in the passages.

You are the one who is denying what Genesis 2 is actually saying. And you are the one who is trying to change the contexts of this chapter, which essentially make you -

(A) either too ignorant to understand what you are reading,
OR (B) you are lying to me as well as deceiving yourself.​

And seriously of the two of us, you are who have the reputation of consistently not being honest.

 

[dad]

That is really a matter of your personal opinions.

Not at all. The reality is reinforced in all the bible that God created and did so in an ordered way. The very first verse in Chapter 2 tells us it was all over already. No opinion needed. The opinion comes when people deny the truth and try to paint God as some confused clown who has no idea what He is talking about.

Be honest.

 

[sooda]

Your dates are a myth!
It was after that time when the nature change and subsequent worldwide plate movements occurred. Probably plowed under/subducted!
You might as well talk about the tooth fairy as recite dream dates.

Mickey mouse little attempted copies of the original tower.
Clueless.
Show how you date it..hahaha

Ziggrats were built all over the Middle East.. Some are still standing.

 

[dad]

Ziggrats were built all over the Middle East.. Some are still standing.

Long after the tower of Babel. So?

 

[gnostic]

Long after the tower of Babel. So?

How would you know, since there are no archaeological evidence that the Tower of Babel ever existing?

You cannot say everything exist “after”, when you cannot even put a date to the Tower of Babel, because Babel is a myth.

All you are doing is making baseless conjecture about the Tower of Babel, making things up.

Lying is a sin, and yet you keep sinning. I am just surprised your nose isn’t longer than a log.

 

[cladking]

How would you know, since there are no archaeological evidence that the Tower of Babel ever existing?

Of course there's evidence the "tower" existed. Most of this evidence is in language which is tenuous and interpretive but it also exists in writing. In addition to the Bible there are accounts in other languages.

I Studied Inscriptions from Before the Flood

I would ask how it's possible there were no words for "thought", "belief", taxonomic, nor reductionistic words in the oldest writing and then these appeared "suddenly". Why do comprehensible languages date back only to about 2000 BC? It seems quite apparent that language changed quite suddenly.

 

[gnostic]

Of course there's evidence the "tower" existed. Most of this evidence is in language which is tenuous and interpretive but it also exists in writing. In addition to the Bible there are accounts in other languages.

I Studied Inscriptions from Before the Flood

I would ask how it's possible there were no words for "thought", "belief", taxonomic, nor reductionistic words in the oldest writing and then these appeared "suddenly". Why do comprehensible languages date back only to about 2000 BC? It seems quite apparent that language changed quite suddenly.

Except that Sumerian-Akkadian cuneiforms, Elamite cuneiforms and Egyptian hieroglyphs and hieratic, all predated 2000 BCE.

And I am talking about physical archaeological evidence that the Tower of Babel existing.

The only very large structure in ancient Babylon, is the ruin of ziggurat Etemenanki, which was sacred to Marduk (Bel), and the oldest date to this ziggurat is 1400 BCE. So Etemenanki is about 600 years too young to be mythological 2000 BCE Babel.

There were no Hebrew writing existing in 1400 BCE, no evidence that Genesis and Exodus existing at that time.

But my understanding about the archaeological ruin of Etemenanki is that most evidence were younger than 1400 BCE, because Etemenanki was reconstructed at later date.

My understanding is that Etemenanki was destroyed, when Babylon was captured and also destroyed in early 7th century BCE by the Neo-Assyrian army under Sennacherib.

But then Sennacherib’s son and successor, Esarhaddon (681 - 669 BCE), began rebuilding Babylon, which included beginning reconstruction of ziggurat Etemenanki, that wasn’t completed until Nebuchadnezzar II (604 - 562 BCE). Etemenanki was again destroyed by the Hellenistic king Antiochus I in the early 3rd century BCE.

So the younger Etemenanki was way too young to be the Tower of Babel.

The story of Babel was most likely invented in 6th century BCE when Jews were living as hostages in Babylon, and that Etemenanki was the inspiration for Tower of Babel story.

There are no large buildings that survived from the 1st dynasty of Babylon (c 1894 - c 1595 BCE, Old Babylonian period), and this dynasty were actually Amorites (hence Amorite dynasty), not Akkadians, but the Amorite rulers adopted Akkadian language.

The 2nd dynasty of Babylon (c 1595 - 1235 BCE), were ruled by Kassites, hence the Kassite dynasty. By 1235 BCE, Babylon was ruled by Assyrian kings of the Middle Assyrian empire (1365 - 1056 BCE).

Before the Amorites conquered Sumer, Babylon was a minor city in 3rd millennium BCE, probably built around 2300 BCE, and only became important in Old Babylonian period, which I have already mentioned.

My points is that there were Old Etemenanki built by the Kassite dynasty (14th century BCE) and the New Etemenanki built by the Neo-Assyrian and Neo-Babylonian dynasties (7th - 6th centuries BCE).

And it was the New Etemenanki that was inspiration source of Genesis’ Tower of Babel.

But Tower of Babel don’t exist at all, and certainly not in 2000 BCE, when Babylon wasn’t even important city.

You and dad are speaking rubbish about the Tower of Babel. Now unless either you can provide evidence of structure existing in 2000 BCE, Babel is merely a myth.

 

[dad]

How would you know, since there are no archaeological evidence that the Tower of Babel ever existing?

If the nature change and subsequent rapid tectonic movements occurred after Babel, then we expect no remains on the surface.

You cannot say everything exist “after”, when you cannot even put a date to the Tower of Babel, because Babel is a myth.

Yes, I can, because Abraham was there and we know when he lived and died.

All you are doing is making baseless conjecture about the Tower of Babel, making things up.

On the contrary, the time is known, and it is also known that languages started at that event. Looking at the cultures and religions of the world it makes sense that it started somewhere. Also, with the rapid continent moves after Babel, that allowed religions and cultures and languages to get around the world fast.

Add to this the fossil record, which shows some animals and plants on more than one continent. In addition, the animals from the ark had to get around the planet to where we see them now also.

 

[rational experiences]

Correction:The Firmament that separates the waters above from the waters below.

Where exactly is the Firmament located? And what is the Firmament exactly?

There is no waters above the Earth. So, as I was informed, the water vapors are what Genesis was supposedly referring to.



Would the Firmament be wetlands at ocean depths?

Would the Firmament be atmospheric?

How do you reconcile Genesis creation account with Geology?

I am thinking that the Genesis writer saw blue skies and figured there was water in the skies that was vaulted and would release rain from time to time.

Also in another book the circle of the Earth is mentioned. A circle is not a sphere so I am under the impression that the writer saw Earth as a dome with a circle of flat land.

So basically as it appears:

1)Waters above
Firmament
Waters below

2) Then the waters above and below gathered unto one place and the dry land appeared.

A

Correction:The Firmament that separates the waters above from the waters below.

Where exactly is the Firmament located? And what is the Firmament exactly?

There is no waters above the Earth. So, as I was informed, the water vapors are what Genesis was supposedly referring to.



Would the Firmament be wetlands at ocean depths?

Would the Firmament be atmospheric?

How do you reconcile Genesis creation account with Geology?

I am thinking that the Genesis writer saw blue skies and figured there was water in the skies that was vaulted and would release rain from time to time.

Also in another book the circle of the Earth is mentioned. A circle is not a sphere so I am under the impression that the writer saw Earth as a dome with a circle of flat land.

So basically as it appears:

1)Waters above
Firmament
Waters below

2) Then the waters above and below gathered unto one place and the dry land appeared.

Males as science selves lie to self.

Such as making claims that if they did not exist, meaning of lie, from big bang to right now, then no Universe would exist either as the reviewer and studier.

Yet they stand on a solid O body, stone that they called God, the Earth and would not be present, alive or thinking if not for that body and also the atmosphere.

Says today that God is a particle, yet his theory/story and machine collider where he says his studies of God and understanding God will give him all the power of God and yet he says the power of God is electricity. And totally ignores any other science story, theme or previous machine and physical matter reaction.

As that sort of lying storyteller, only tells stories based on a self applied male human purpose, by his thoughts.

Knows in 2 conditions to get electricity it is to remove a huge body of mass to allow its presence....knows.

Says his string and particle theory begins...it sure does. From the mined particle product of his chemicals and minerals....where the particle for a human being science self begins.

Why the theme study of his Satanic science thoughts was applied by other living males to contend with his evilness, and they called that statement the Christ consciousness.....and said, and his mind is evil.

A male wants us all to believe that the whole power of the Universe is just inside a particle.

So where did the particle come from?

He cannot do science unless he owns a machine to control react.
He does medical science for our life living with him in male choices to claim to assist you.
But when he starts to claim science about removal and forced change and separation conditions...when natural owns every separated male studied state that his mind studied already......naturally everything is separate.

You would ask what causes separation and separate to exist and to be thought about......space does.

Yet males says that in the particle theme/flat Earth lying statements, not a male standing on the body of God mass and fusion, the male standing on God who wants God to become an invented particle. As the males who say I can cause that reality.

And then you ask him, how?

And the answer is always his own God story. Once I was that God male he says...male with a penis, cannot be a male unless you have a penis and claim he etc. Him, man and male....said as a living human man and male I own.

His first mistake....for all he owns is natural. His thinking however is coercion...so he tries to preach coercive reasoning about why he should be allowed to own change by self presence and machine.

Claiming and I can do no harm if I say that no space exists, for it would imply first that I cannot do any harm for I would own no condition to state separation to put something from then into.

As a scientist.

So males say today and did theme about water and oxygen and separation, when water is water, separate as the mass...and oxygen is oxygen separate as its mass also....naturally separate yet together supportive of existence.

Ask self what you are researching for male Satanic science organization by imposing that separation can be forced upon natural that already is separated?

 

[osgart]

A

Males as science selves lie to self.

Such as making claims that if they did not exist, meaning of lie, from big bang to right now, then no Universe would exist either as the reviewer and studier.

Yet they stand on a solid O body, stone that they called God, the Earth and would not be present, alive or thinking if not for that body and also the atmosphere.

Says today that God is a particle, yet his theory/story and machine collider where he says his studies of God and understanding God will give him all the power of God and yet he says the power of God is electricity. And totally ignores any other science story, theme or previous machine and physical matter reaction.

As that sort of lying storyteller, only tells stories based on a self applied male human purpose, by his thoughts.

Knows in 2 conditions to get electricity it is to remove a huge body of mass to allow its presence....knows.

Says his string and particle theory begins...it sure does. From the mined particle product of his chemicals and minerals....where the particle for a human being science self begins.

Why the theme study of his Satanic science thoughts was applied by other living males to contend with his evilness, and they called that statement the Christ consciousness.....and said, and his mind is evil.

A male wants us all to believe that the whole power of the Universe is just inside a particle.

So where did the particle come from?

He cannot do science unless he owns a machine to control react.
He does medical science for our life living with him in male choices to claim to assist you.
But when he starts to claim science about removal and forced change and separation conditions...when natural owns every separated male studied state that his mind studied already......naturally everything is separate.

You would ask what causes separation and separate to exist and to be thought about......space does.

Yet males says that in the particle theme/flat Earth lying statements, not a male standing on the body of God mass and fusion, the male standing on God who wants God to become an invented particle. As the males who say I can cause that reality.

And then you ask him, how?

And the answer is always his own God story. Once I was that God male he says...male with a penis, cannot be a male unless you have a penis and claim he etc. Him, man and male....said as a living human man and male I own.

His first mistake....for all he owns is natural. His thinking however is coercion...so he tries to preach coercive reasoning about why he should be allowed to own change by self presence and machine.

Claiming and I can do no harm if I say that no space exists, for it would imply first that I cannot do any harm for I would own no condition to state separation to put something from then into.

As a scientist.

So males say today and did theme about water and oxygen and separation, when water is water, separate as the mass...and oxygen is oxygen separate as its mass also....naturally separate yet together supportive of existence.

Ask self what you are researching for male Satanic science organization by imposing that separation can be forced upon natural that already is separated?

I sincerely hope you are ok there bud.

 

[rational experiences]

I sincerely hope you are ok there bud.

There? Am I somewhere else? The forums are about occult scientists hoping that someone in the public can explain God to them...seeing they don't know their own selves.

 

[cladking]

Except that Sumerian-Akkadian cuneiforms, Elamite cuneiforms and Egyptian hieroglyphs and hieratic, all predated 2000 BCE.

And I am talking about physical archaeological evidence that the Tower of Babel existing.

The only very large structure in ancient Babylon, is the ruin of ziggurat Etemenanki, which was sacred to Marduk (Bel), and the oldest date to this ziggurat is 1400 BCE. So Etemenanki is about 600 years too young to be mythological 2000 BCE Babel.

There were no Hebrew writing existing in 1400 BCE, no evidence that Genesis and Exodus existing at that time.

But my understanding about the archaeological ruin of Etemenanki is that most evidence were younger than 1400 BCE, because Etemenanki was reconstructed at later date.

My understanding is that Etemenanki was destroyed, when Babylon was captured and also destroyed in early 7th century BCE by the Neo-Assyrian army under Sennacherib.

But then Sennacherib’s son and successor, Esarhaddon (681 - 669 BCE), began rebuilding Babylon, which included beginning reconstruction of ziggurat Etemenanki, that wasn’t completed until Nebuchadnezzar II (604 - 562 BCE). Etemenanki was again destroyed by the Hellenistic king Antiochus I in the early 3rd century BCE.

So the younger Etemenanki was way too young to be the Tower of Babel.

The story of Babel was most likely invented in 6th century BCE when Jews were living as hostages in Babylon, and that Etemenanki was the inspiration for Tower of Babel story.

There are no large buildings that survived from the 1st dynasty of Babylon (c 1894 - c 1595 BCE, Old Babylonian period), and this dynasty were actually Amorites (hence Amorite dynasty), not Akkadians, but the Amorite rulers adopted Akkadian language.

The 2nd dynasty of Babylon (c 1595 - 1235 BCE), were ruled by Kassites, hence the Kassite dynasty. By 1235 BCE, Babylon was ruled by Assyrian kings of the Middle Assyrian empire (1365 - 1056 BCE).

Before the Amorites conquered Sumer, Babylon was a minor city in 3rd millennium BCE, probably built around 2300 BCE, and only became important in Old Babylonian period, which I have already mentioned.

My points is that there were Old Etemenanki built by the Kassite dynasty (14th century BCE) and the New Etemenanki built by the Neo-Assyrian and Neo-Babylonian dynasties (7th - 6th centuries BCE).

And it was the New Etemenanki that was inspiration source of Genesis’ Tower of Babel.

But Tower of Babel don’t exist at all, and certainly not in 2000 BCE, when Babylon wasn’t even important city.

You and dad are speaking rubbish about the Tower of Babel. Now unless either you can provide evidence of structure existing in 2000 BCE, Babel is merely a myth.

You are assuming the story of the "Tower of Babel" is about a place and a structural collapse.

I believe the story is about the change in the nature of language. If I'm right then we don't really know exactly what we're looking for or where exactly to look. We don't even know when to look at but there was obviously some change in language about 2000 BC so this is a good time period to look.

Sumerian and Egyptian can't really be traced back much before 2000 BC. At least the oldest available writing makes no sense so we can't really say it has been translated at all.

 

[osgart]

There? Am I somewhere else? The forums are about occult scientists hoping that someone in the public can explain God to them...seeing they don't know their own selves.

Maybe so! There are actual scientists on RF. Probably a ton more science fanatics who have extreme faith in science giving them all answers and all explanations for existence as it is.

Existence is a mystery anyway! I never had any faith in human explanation. I have a ton more faith in human ingenuity, but certainly not explanation.

 

[rational experiences]

If the nature change and subsequent rapid tectonic movements occurred after Babel, then we expect no remains on the surface.
Yes, I can, because Abraham was there and we know when he lived and died.
On the contrary, the time is known, and it is also known that languages started at that event. Looking at the cultures and religions of the world it makes sense that it started somewhere. Also, with the rapid continent moves after Babel, that allowed religions and cultures and languages to get around the world fast.

Add to this the fossil record, which shows some animals and plants on more than one continent. In addition, the animals from the ark had to get around the planet to where we see them now also.

Life on Earth is the past shift of the plates, snap, break and drop is not known to a mind seeking information of the past. Animals could have all been living on the same joined continent once.

The story of the Ark says a human male researcher tried to copy what Planet Earth as GOD O the body of had gained when SUN UFO/radiation attacked it....and took Earth as a gas mass back in time to when its own body owned a higher radiating mass.

Evolution cooled radiating history.

So when the Earth owned radiating gas light, it was its own past hotter history, so it had already shifted natural time itself....what a male researching mind already realized. Why he knew he could remove MASS itself by inference of shifting time as a history evolution.

A male science self said God told me how to cause the Ark attack...as his own confession....and males have always confessed in the use of the word, when naming/evaluating conditions it gives correct answers. So when you get told you are doing evil, it is because the worded descriptions already told you so. Yet males in science, called Satanists ignore the relevance, and Destroy us.

For the wooden ark, is a science burning of the tree/bush theme by UFO mass radiation/cult conditions, Satanism, burning. The attack on natural life. Wood is natural in Nature, trees. If a male in science is building a power, then he knew the results, for you do not apply science rationally unless you own an answer.

He already knew that stone carbonised/converted its mass into a form of wood in UFO attack, the O metal ark, what he does not discuss, his Satanism. Where it landed, it burnt the ground and the lives it attacked.

The burning of the Earth gas mass forms and opening O in the clouds. Birds got irradiated first as a huge massed body...so then in cloud images you see a bird image come through that cloud hole. The ark wanders the Earth attacking life of humans and animals on the ground, as a theme....calculated....so that all that was left in natural life is what the x calculation said. 8 human being parent bodies and x 2 of every animal parent. So it confessed to claim that it had murdered and destroyed in science all other living bodies.

Actually.

 

[dad]

Life on Earth is the past shift of the plates, snap, break and drop is not known to a mind seeking information of the past. Animals could have all been living on the same joined continent once.

They were as were we with them.

The story of the Ark says a human male researcher tried to copy what Planet Earth as GOD O the body of had gained when SUN UFO/radiation attacked it....and took Earth as a gas mass back in time to when its own body owned a higher radiating mass.

No. Maybe ask a friend who speaks English to post for you?

Evolution cooled radiating history.

Is that so?

So when the Earth owned radiating gas light, it was its own past hotter history, so it had already shifted natural time itself....what a male researching mind already realized. Why he knew he could remove MASS itself by inference of shifting time as a history evolution.

Quite a vivid imagination I see.

A male science self said God told me how to cause the Ark attack...as his own confession....and males have always confessed in the use of the word, when naming/evaluating conditions it gives correct answers. So when you get told you are doing evil, it is because the worded descriptions already told you so. Yet males in science, called Satanists ignore the relevance, and Destroy us.

No. God is greater. Relax.

For the wooden ark, is a science burning of the tree/bush theme by UFO mass radiation/cult conditions, Satanism, burning. The attack on natural life. Wood is natural in Nature, trees. If a male in science is building a power, then he knew the results, for you do not apply science rationally unless you own an answer.

He already knew that stone carbonised/converted its mass into a form of wood in UFO attack, the O metal ark, what he does not discuss, his Satanism. Where it landed, it burnt the ground and the lives it attacked.

The burning of the Earth gas mass forms and opening O in the clouds. Birds got irradiated first as a huge massed body...so then in cloud images you see a bird image come through that cloud hole. The ark wanders the Earth attacking life of humans and animals on the ground, as a theme....calculated....so that all that was left in natural life is what the x calculation said. 8 human being parent bodies and x 2 of every animal parent. So it confessed to claim that it had murdered and destroyed in science all other living bodies.

Actually.

Looks like your issue is more of a purposeful confusion and speech rather than a language issue. I think they call that a troll.

 

[JesusKnowsYou]

"The Genesis account never claimed to be a complete record of all human history and other accounts of the same events claim that Adam and Eve had many many children. This stands to reason considering that they were recorded to have lived nearly a thousand years."

LOLOL. OK.. You believe that they were recorded to live nearly a thousand years.

The Genesis account claims that Adam both lived to be 930 years old and that he "begat sons and daughters".

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters:

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died." (Genesis 5:3-5)

No one is forcing you to believe it, but this is what the Genesis account claims.

There is no reason to assume that the Genesis account supports the idea that there were other human beings outside of the family of Adam and Eve.