German politician says: Ukraine will not win this war

[TagliatelliMonster]

They weren't under gunpoint and Crimea is historically Russian and occupied by Russians, it is of vital strategic importance to Russia and Russia was never going to let it fall into Western hands, which was the obvious trajectory. The Crimeans themselves see themselves as aligned to Russia, that is simply a fact. You have a complete blindspot US Imperialism, the US have been interfering in Ukrainian affairs since the end of WW2 and they've never stopped.

Evidence? by evidence I mean credible sources, not the Guardian or BBC obviously.

Because obviously the Maidan coup, which was clearly EU and US instigated is just a bit too inconvenient.

You seriously don't understand the significance of those numbers? of course you do, but again, it's all a bit too inconvenient. Your Overton window is at least triple glazed...

ffs.....

Yeah, whatever man.
The referendums weren't at gunpoint....

This clearly is a pointless conversation.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That bolded statement is pure comedy gold, you had the Government, the Prime minister, the opposition, the media and uncle Tom Cobbley and all on your side, it could not have been a more unfair and biased lead up to the Referendum, but still you lost, and it had nothing to do with Cambridge Analytica or anyone else. I knew we would win, because I knew how the working class felt, and how we were being demonised as 'waycists' and all the other nonsense. I also understand the hubris of the sneering classes, in their detached houses in leafy suburbs, mostly unaffected by mass immigration (except for cheap labour of course), voting in their own self interest because they loved allegedly easier travel to their holiday homes in Tuscany or Bordeaux. The bad news for them was that we had the numbers, and the ruling class knew they were losing, even though they tried to rig the polls some knew what was coming, so they tried one last throw of the dice, and Jo Cox died for it.

Before you go all 'conspiracy theory' cliche on me, take a good look at the trial, or non trial of Thomas Mair, and how he was taken down in the style of a Blackadder court, and how little has ever been mentioned of it since. But the EU have form on this, Olofe Palme was conveniently murdered because he was not playing by the rule book, amongst others, and NATO's operation Gladio tells us what really goes on with the 'good guys'. The murder of Jo Cox was the last throw to completely demonise us all, it nearly worked as well, but not quite, so now we've had to endure a Brexit in name only and a complete betrayal by the whole political class, and now we have Starmer, a Tri-lateral commission stooge with the job of completing the destruction of this country in time for Agenda 2030 and real totalitarianism. The useless eliters had big taste of it in 2020 and they want more, and Starmer is their man, enjoy the hollow victory of him dragging us back into the farce that is the EU, you won't be celebrating for long, digital ID and CBDC incoming, say goodbye to whatever freedom you ever imagined you had.

Owkay then.
I'll be sure to order my tinfoil hat.

 

[Tony B]

ffs.....

Yeah, whatever man.
The referendums weren't at gunpoint....

This clearly is a pointless conversation.

You believe it because the BBC said so, that's pretty much it isn't it.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Because obviously the Maidan coup, which was clearly EU and US instigated

Evidence of this, please.

And no, "two US diplomats stating a preference for leadership in a phone call" is not evidence of US-backed coup.

 

[Tony B]

Owkay then.
I'll be sure to order my tinfoil hat.

You don't need one to read Agenda's 2021 and 2031, it's all there in plain sight 'You will own nothing and be happy'....

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You believe it because the BBC said so, that's pretty much it isn't it.

No.

I believe it as a result of the demonstrable facts on the ground as reported by human rights organizations, amnesty international, the UN, and just about every other independent reporter and their mothers that witnessed it. As well as the Ukrainians themselves that lived it and since have fled the scene.

One of them actually works for me.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You don't need one to read Agenda's 2021 and 2031, it's all there in plain sight 'You will own nothing and be happy'....

Sure, sure.

 

[Tony B]

Evidence of this, please.

And no, "two US diplomats stating a preference for leadership in a phone call" is not evidence of US-backed coup.

There's plenty for you to chew over in here..

Ukraine On Fire HD

but lets be honest, when someone says this they're not interested in any evidence, your dismissal of albright's comments alone tells me all I need to know. You probably believe the 750 global US bases are 'peacekeeping' missions instead of what they really are, I doubt you'll even bother to watch what I linked to. If your TV says it ain't so, it ain't so right?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

There's plenty for you to chew over in here..

I'm not watching an hour and a half video of Kremlin propaganda. Just tell me the gist.

but lets be honest, when someone says this they're not interested in any evidence, your dismissal of albright's comments alone tells me all I need to know. You probably believe the 750 global US bases are 'peacekeeping' missions instead of what they really are, I doubt you'll even bother to watch what I linked to. If your TV says it ain't so, it ain't so right?

I have no idea what you're talking about, but I do find it hilariously ironic that that you rant about how people you're debating against only believe what "TV says", and yet when asked for evidence of your position you link me to an hour and a half-long video of Pro-Russian propaganda.

Classic. Couldn't make it up.

Incidentally, since you are so upset by "US and EU meddling" in Ukraine, what opinion do you have of the decades and decades of Russian meddling in Ukraine, coupled with their military annexation, puppet regimes, shooting of Ukrainian protesters and the fact that they provided sanctuary to the ousted Ukrainian president after they had their own people murdered? Is that not worth remarking on?

 

[Estro Felino]

And if we go back even further, then Russia is a historical part of Ukraine.
All that means nothing.

It's impossible to have a serious conversation with you on geopolitics and international law.
You apply double standards according to your bias.
The law is ONE. ONE. ONE.

So because Putin doesn't throw Italian politicians in jail or poisons them, therefor he doesn't get rid of Russian politicians that oppose him. Great logic you got there.

Evidently we Italians are all Russian agents. That's why he doesn't poison us.

Being peace-loving doesn't mean that we will, or should, bend over backwards to appease tyrants.

There are also non-warlike means. We have evolved from the animal stage.

You can fight a tyrant with sanctions. With economic sanctions, diplomacy, etc...etc...

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There's plenty for you to chew over in here..

Ukraine On Fire HD

A 1.5 hour video on a youtube-knock-off streaming platform?
For real?
https://odysee.com/@Happy:9/ukraineonfire:9e

but lets be honest, when someone says this they're not interested in any evidence, your dismissal of albright's comments alone tells me all I need to know. You probably believe the 750 global US bases are 'peacekeeping' missions instead of what they really are, I doubt you'll even bother to watch what I linked to. If your TV says it ain't so, it ain't so right?

You are right, we are not going to bother watching a 1.5 hour video hoping it will contain this evidence you claim it has and expect us to go hunt for it in an online clip that could have been put there by virtually anyone.

Try a real source and point us to the evidence instead of this species of gish gallopping.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Incidentally, since you are so upset by "US and EU meddling" in Ukraine, what opinion do you have of the decades and decades of Russian meddling in Ukraine, coupled with their military annexation, puppet regimes, shooting of Ukrainian protesters and the fact that they provided sanctuary to ouster Ukrainian officials after they had their own people murdered? Is that not worth remarking on?

I bet those are all "urban legends", like how Putin "supposedly" poisons and jails opposing russian politicians. That "never happened" either.
And the "referendums" although carried out under illegal occupation and organized by the illegal occupier were "free and fair and honest".

It's hard to argue with people who have their heads stuck so deep into the ground.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's impossible to have a serious conversation with you on geopolitics and international law.
You apply double standards according to your bias.

Classic case of projection.

The law is ONE. ONE. ONE.

Yes. A law, for example, is that referendums during wartime while under occupation are illegal. Doubly so if they are organized by the occupier.

Evidently we Italians are all Russian agents. That's why he doesn't poison us.

Bad faith again?
Russian opposition.

Which word don't you understand? "russian" or "opposition"?

You can fight a tyrant with sanctions. With economic sanctions, diplomacy, etc...etc...

All of which clearly doesn't help when he marches his army into a sovereign country anyway

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I bet those are all "urban legends", like how Putin "supposedly" poisons and jails opposing russian politicians. That "never happened" either.
And the "referendums" although carried out under illegal occupation and organized by the illegal occupier were "free and fair and honest".

It's hard to argue with people who have their heads stuck so deep into the ground.

Always remember:

The US supporting protesters and and the rise of a pro-US regime = "This was a US-backed coup!"

Russia literally invading and annexing territory = "Eh, they were basically Russian anyway, no big deal."

It says a lot about a person when they decry generalised US support for popular political movements as "US imperialism/meddling" with one breath, but with the very next breathe downplay actual military expansionism and imperialism.

 

[Tony B]

I'm not watching an hour and a half video of Kremlin propaganda. Just tell me the gist.


I have no idea what you're talking about, but I do find it hilariously ironic that that you rant about how people you're debating against only believe what "TV says", and yet when asked for evidence of your position you link me to an hour and a half-long video of Pro-Russian propaganda.

Ah yes, the 'everything that isn't belt fed to me by my TV is 'propaganda' right? How could you even know, it is not even possibly that you watched it, that pretty much sums it up.

Classic. Couldn't make it up.

Incidentally, since you are so upset by "US and EU meddling" in Ukraine, what opinion do you have of the decades and decades of Russian meddling in Ukraine, coupled with their military annexation, puppet regimes, shooting of Ukrainian protesters and the fact that they provided sanctuary to the ousted Ukrainian president after they had their own people murdered? Is that not worth remarking on?

Russia and Ukraine have been intrinsically joined since forever. What protestors where shot by Russians? do you have any credible evidence for that, I just provided you with 1.5 hours of evidence for you to mull over that strongly suggests a very different story, including the murder of 60 people burned alive by Ukrainians in Crimea, this is not even disputed, just hidden, after you.

 

[Estro Felino]

Classic case of projection.

No...because I apply one single standard on Kosovo and Donbas.
You apply two different standards.

Yes. A law, for example, is that referendums during wartime while under occupation are illegal. Doubly so if they are organized by the occupier.

I don't think you are in good faith. At all.
Because it's like you said that in Wallonie there are only Flemish-speaking people...and we cannot make a referendum about their independence in case France helps them become independent.

Donbas, same thing as Wallonie: there are Russian-speaking people who want to become independent.
I don't think you debate in good faith, monsieur.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Ah yes, the 'everything that isn't belt fed to me by my TV is 'propaganda' right?

Nope. Propaganda is propaganda. Like that video you linked me to. It's very widely understood to be propaganda.

Ukraine on Fire (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

How could you even know, it is not even possibly that you watched it, that pretty much sums it up.

See above.

Russia and Ukraine have been intrinsically joined since forever.

And yet, at some point, they stopped being linked and Ukraine became a sovereign nation. Gee, I wonder why they could possibly have wanted that? Maybe it was because over 90% of the population voted for it after decades of Russian meddling in the region and fears of instability brought on by an attempted Russian coup?

1991 Ukrainian independence referendum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But, hey, who cares about what the populations of countries want, right?

What protestors where shot by Russians?

Maidan casualties - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"In April 2014, Ukraine's new interior minister, Avakov, presented the findings of the initial investigation into the shootings. It found the Berkut responsible for shooting the protesters, and identified twelve of the officers involved. It also identified some of the firing positions. Avakov said the previous regime had tried to hinder any inquiry by destroying weapons, uniforms and documents.[36] The investigation also found that more than 30 Russian Federal Security Bureau (FSB) agents were involved in the crackdown on protesters."

do you have any credible evidence for that, I just provided you with 1.5 hours of evidence

No, you didn't. You provided me with propaganda that I already told you I'm not going to watch. Present evidence. Don't just expect me to watch an hour-long Kremlin-sponsored propaganda film.

for you to mull over that strongly suggests a very different story, including the murder of 60 people burned alive by Ukrainians in Crimea, this is not even disputed, just hidden, after you.

Are you going to support your arguments without Russian propaganda?

 

[Tony B]

Nope. Propaganda is propaganda. Like that video you linked me to. It's very widely understood to be propaganda.

Ukraine on Fire (film) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You literally cited that using propaganda central, wikipedia? seriously

See above.


And yet, at some point, they stopped being linked and Ukraine became a sovereign nation. Gee, I wonder why they could possibly have wanted that?

Maidan casualties - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"In April 2014, Ukraine's new interior minister, Avakov, presented the findings of the initial investigation into the shootings. It found the Berkut responsible for shooting the protesters, and identified twelve of the officers involved. It also identified some of the firing positions. Avakov said the previous regime had tried to hinder any inquiry by destroying weapons, uniforms and documents.[36] The investigation also found that more than 30 Russian Federal Security Bureau (FSB) agents were involved in the crackdown on protesters."

Brilliant, you cited the perpetrators as your source

No, you didn't. You provided me with propaganda that I already told you I'm not going to watch. Present evidence. Don't just expect me to watch an hour-long Kremlin-sponsored propaganda film.

You see this what I've already told, this is pointless, you're not interested in any alternative sources except your hilariously 'fact-checked' government approved sources.

Are you going to support your arguments without Russian propaganda?

Are you going to support your arguments without USA propaganda? but let me guess, the USA doesn't do propaganda does it, it's too busy with it's 750 'peacekeeping' bases

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You literally cited that using propaganda central, wikipedia? seriously

If you think Wikipedia is "propaganda central", you're deluded.

Why should I trust a movie sponsored by the Kremlin rather than an online encyclopedia with full sources? Tell me.

Brilliant, you cited the perpetrators as your source

You mean, the independent review carried out and readable in full?

Meanwhile, your Kremlin movie is indisputable, right?

You see this what I've already told, this is pointless, you're not interested in any alternative sources

Again, you're the one presenting Kremlin propaganda, while I am presenting sources.

except your hilariously 'fact-checked' government approved sources.

Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia with no government control. You provided Kremlin-approved propganda.

Are you going to support your arguments without USA propaganda?

Already have. I provided a report carried out by the Ukrainian government.

but let me guess, the USA doesn't do propaganda does it, it's too busy with it's 750 'peacekeeping' bases

Since I haven't provided anything from the USA, you're yammering.

Literally, any facts that aren't directly from the Kremlin are "USA propaganda".

Get help, and stop defending actual imperialists.

 

[Tony B]

If you think Wikipedia is "propaganda central", you're deluded.

Wikipedia is a politically biased and influenced source which specialises in political hit pieces and disinformation. This is well know by anyone who has taken the time to check it. It regularly lies about people, changes details and just because there's a link doesn't mean the source is credible. Someone like you will of course slavishly praise it because it probably supports your political ideals and you have no problem cancelling people you disagree with. People who dissent from state approved narratives are regularly cancelled and lied about on wikipedia, so good luck relying on that for any credibility.

Why should I trust a movie sponsored by the Kremlin rather than an online encyclopedia with full sources? Tell me.

I understand there's no point pursuing this any further with you, I understand how this goes with people like you.

You mean, the independent review carried out and readable in full?

'Independent'

Meanwhile, your Kremlin movie is indisputable, right?

I would never make any such claim from any source, but it certainly has some uncomfortable truths in it, did you know you support neo-nazi's in Ukraine, they even wear the SS insignia. There was a time when even the BBC told some truth, then they conveniently forgot about it.

Neo Nazi threat in Ukraine

Ukraine's most-feared volunteers

The far-right group threatening to overthrow Ukraine's government

Did your government forget to mention this to you?

Again, you're the one presenting Kremlin propaganda, while I am presenting sources.

No, your presenting your own propaganda, but because you agree with it, it's ok, thats the truth.

Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia with no government control. You provided Kremlin-approved propganda.

See above

Already have. I provided a report carried out by the Ukrainian government.

You mean puppet regime.

Since I haven't provided anything from the USA, you're yammering.

Literally, any facts that aren't directly from the Kremlin are "USA propaganda".

Get help, and stop defending actual imperialists.

I'd concentrate on your support of Neo Nazi's if I were you, and obviously your maths isn't too great, I mean 750 bases verses 3, and a government that killed 3000 of it's own people in order to start a war and kill millions more in the ME, take those blinkers off buddy.