German politician says: Ukraine will not win this war

[TagliatelliMonster]

That bus really chafed your a**** didn't it You still haven't recovered 9 years later, such is the level of hubris. Let me be clear, I didn't agree with everything said from my side of the fence, but at least a positive vision was presented. All your side could muster was vitriol and 'we're all gonna die!', which is why you lost.

You seem triggered. Relax, it was just a joke.

That bus became a mega-meme

 

[Tony B]

You seem triggered. Relax, it was just a joke.

That bus became a mega-meme

I'm not triggered at all, I find the Bus thing very amusing, because the more Remainers tried to meme using it the more we laughed, but not for the reasons they thought, I still think most of them don't get it. Ultimately, rightly or wrongly, we didn't care. It's like when you get a dodgy penalty that clinches the game for your side, you can see through it but you'll take the victory nonetheless. The irony being that dirty tricks employed by the Remain side were significantly greater in number from where we were sitting.

 

[Estro Felino]

I'm not triggered at all, I find the Bus thing very amusing, because the more Remainers tried to meme using it the more we laughed, but not for the reasons they thought, I still think most of them don't get it. Ultimately, rightly or wrongly, we didn't care. It's like when you get a dodgy penalty that clinches the game for your side, you can see through it but you'll take the victory nonetheless. The irony being that dirty tricks employed by the Remain side were significantly greater in number from where we were sitting.

The entire EU framework was filled with unelected technocrats who were on the verge of a deadly stroke every time they heard that the Brexit process was moving forward.
But now in Brussels they tell us that they have never hindered the Brexit process.
They must think we all are
1) without long-term memory
3) blind and deaf

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I see. Well ...I respect those Germans' opinion.
But being anti-Putin sounds like soccer-fan-ism. Too generic.
That is...they should be for Germany, above all.

It's not soccer-fan-ism when you have actual reasons.
By your logic, your "anti-banker" and "anti-soros" and "anti-elites" and "pro-putin" isms are also soccer-fan-isms.

So am I.
But this war is identical to the territorial controversy between Kosovo and Serbia.

It isn't and I have explained countless times already how it isn't.

Let the referendums decide.

The referendums where illegal as they were carried out in occupied territory during wartime at gun-point.
There are rules to adhere to, even for Russians.

I can imagine.
Sorosian framework is the team who lives in Brussels...whom you adore, for sure.

Capitulation would be to let Russia conquer Kiev.

Capitulation would be to letting Russians conquer any part of Ukraine.

Russia just wants the four regions...that's it.

No, actually, they wanted Ukraine entirely, which is why they tried to blitzkrieg towards Kiev. That turned out a humiliating failure. Later on they only succeeded to conquer the eastern parts - and they didn't even succeed in conquering those 4 regions in full either. Now they are saying they want "only" those 4 regions, but history has shown that they can not be trusted as they lie all the time. These past years, almost everything they said turned out to be the opposite of the truth.
They also said they wouldn't invade, for example.

But it matters not. Ukraine is a sovereign country. There is exactly zero reason why anyone would have to bow down to their demand to keep occupied / conquered territories in their illegal expansionist war. If they would return home and then proper and LEGAL referendums would be held and if then the outcome is that the regions would want to join Russia, then that is another story. But we all know Putin will never allow proper and legal referendums.

Honest transparent elections are not his thing.
Poisoning and throwing in jail his opposition, is his thing.
Corruption and illegal voting, is his thing.

You sound like the Italian dems. They lost almost all regions and all elections...but still are in denial...and think Italians love them.

So, in other words, you don't have such statistics and only have anecdotes and youtube comments which you like to pretend are representative of an entire nation.
Got it.

Try Brussels.
Filled with unelected technocrats ...like the PM of Estonia...Kallas.

What about her? Could it be that you don't like her due to her support for Ukraine and condemnation of Russia's illegal practices and war of aggression?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That seems like a sensible stance..

It only seems so.

What people like @Estro Felino really mean with "compromise" in practice just means for Ukraine to bend over backwards with their pants down, while Russia gets whatever it demands.

All this does is create precedents and signals every dictatorial regime around the world that they can blackmail their way to their dreams. That using force and aggression will be rewarded with meeting demands instead of punished.

It would show incredible weakness and that, more so then anything else, is what will upset world balance.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Really? so how have you supported the 13000+ Russian/Ukrainians murdered in the Donbass from 2014 to 2022? You do realise that the Ukrainians were shelling the Donbas and murdering innocent civilians from 2014 onwards? You do realise that the Ukrainians broke both the Minsk agreements to continue attacking the Donbas during this period? So who are the 'aggressors' here? It can be legitimately argued that Putin showed huge restraint in not moving in earlier, he waited 8 years before acting.

So, we are just casually going to completely ignore the 2014 invasion of crimea and the Russian-controlled militias in Donbass doing mini-coups and seizing government buildings and towns while declaring independence?

Owkay then.

You mean the US installed puppet who is allowing his country to be raped by US corporate interests? that Zelensky?

No, I mean the one that was elected by the Ukrainian people with 73% of the votes, defeating Poroshenko.

No, neither the US, the UK, nor NATO want this war to stop, because they had ample opportunities to make that happen, and Boris Johnson in particular ensured it didn't stop when peace was a realistic option.

If you say so. There's not much point in this conversation if all you are going to do is repeat pro-russian propaganda though.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I'm not triggered at all, I find the Bus thing very amusing, because the more Remainers tried to meme using it the more we laughed, but not for the reasons they thought, I still think most of them don't get it. Ultimately, rightly or wrongly, we didn't care. It's like when you get a dodgy penalty that clinches the game for your side, you can see through it but you'll take the victory nonetheless. The irony being that dirty tricks employed by the Remain side were significantly greater in number from where we were sitting.

It wasn't the Remain side that employed companies like Cambridge Analytica to manipulate public opinion using psychological warfare tactics on social media.
But anyway.........................

 

[Estro Felino]

It only seems so.

What people like @Estro Felino really mean with "compromise" in practice just means for Ukraine to bend over backwards with their pants down, while Russia gets whatever it demands.

All this does is create precedents and signals every dictatorial regime around the world that they can blackmail their way to their dreams. That using force and aggression will be rewarded with meeting demands instead of punished.

It would show incredible weakness and that, more so then anything else, is what will upset world balance.

I was not born yesterday.
There is a group of sewer rats who hang out both in Brussels EU buildings and in Washington.
They are paying Kiev to wage a war against Russia...because their dream is to conquer Moscow.

Period. East as that.

 

[Revoltingest]

That bus really chafed your a**** didn't it You still haven't recovered 9 years later, such is the level of hubris. Let me be clear, I didn't agree with everything said from my side of the fence, but at least a positive vision was presented. All your side could muster was vitriol and 'we're all gonna die!', which is why you lost.

Some useful advice....
Profanity can be used, but it must be completely obscured.
That "a" preceding the asterisks is a rule violation.
We don't want to add to the moderators' workload.
Try instead....
*******
#@$%^&

 

[Tony B]

So, we are just casually going to completely ignore the 2014 invasion of crimea and the Russian-controlled militias in Donbass doing mini-coups and seizing government buildings and towns while declaring independence?

Owkay then.

Aren't you forgetting the Crimean referendum? What 'mini-coups' are you referring to?

No, I mean the one that was elected by the Ukrainian people with 73% of the votes, defeating Poroshenko.

You mean the Maidan coup? where the EU and US connived to instal a new puppet regime and Madeleine Albright famously slipped up and declared 'We have our man'...

If you say so. There's not much point in this conversation if all you are going to do is repeat pro-russian propaganda though.

Well you seem very keen on your own brand of propaganda to be honest. Do you know how many military bases the Russians have on foreign soil? 3, do you know how many bases the USA have on foreign soil? 750, so tell me more about Russian 'aggression' compared to US 'foreign policy'...
To quote Mitchell and Webb....'Are we the baddies...'

Are we the baddies?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

They are paying Kiev to wage a war against Russia...

Evidence required.

Period. East as that.

Yeah. Nothing as easy as talking out of your behind.

 

[Tony B]

Evidence required.

Total bilateral aid to Ukraine by donor & type 2024 | Statista

That was easy.

 

[Tony B]

It wasn't the Remain side that employed companies like Cambridge Analytica to manipulate public opinion using psychological warfare tactics on social media.
But anyway.........................

You're still buying that Grauniad clap-trap? seriously? 'Cambridge Analytica made me do it!'

 

[Estro Felino]

It isn't and I have explained countless times already how it isn't.

Deux poids et deux mésures.

The referendums where illegal as they were carried out in occupied territory during wartime at gun-point.
There are rules to adhere to, even for Russians.

The solution would be to repeat the referendum with the UN supervision.

Capitulation would be to letting Russians conquer any part of Ukraine.

Those regions are historical parts of Russia where people speak Russians. Ukrainians are a minority.

If they would return home and then proper and LEGAL referendums would be held and if then the outcome is that the regions would want to join Russia, then that is another story. But we all know Putin will never allow proper and legal referendums.

I said this 100,000 times.
Let the UN supervise the referendums.

Honest transparent elections are not his thing.
Poisoning and throwing in jail his opposition, is his thing.

These paranoiac nonsensical urban legends are laughable in the ears of an Italian person.
So many Italian politicians have travelled to Russia to meet Putin.
So many times Putin has been to Rome.
Nobody has been poisoned.
Please...
Pas de conneries ...monsieur.
Ne me prenez pas pour une conne.

What about her? Could it be that you don't like her due to her support for Ukraine and condemnation of Russia's illegal practices and war of aggression?

It's unacceptable we have a war-promoting technocrat in Brussels. ‘Everything’ on table to help Ukraine beat Putin, Estonian PM says

The EU is a peace-loving and a pacifist organization. And a Belgian should know THAT, for Christ's sake!

You guys are spitting on 80 years of peace in EU!!!!!!!!

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Aren't you forgetting the Crimean referendum?

Referendums while under occupation by foreign forces at gunpoint are not legal.

What 'mini-coups' are you referring to?

Are you serious? You don't know?
Russian controlled and funded armed separatist militia's in Donbas seized government buildings all over during march / april 2014.
The war of donbass actually began when Igor Girkin (a russian citizen, btw) lead a militia that seized Sloviansk.

You mean the Maidan coup?

No, I mean the 2019 elections.

Well you seem very keen on your own brand of propaganda to be honest. Do you know how many military bases the Russians have on foreign soil? 3, do you know how many bases the USA have on foreign soil? 750, so tell me more about Russian 'aggression' compared to US 'foreign policy'...
To quote Mitchell and Webb....'Are we the baddies...'

Are we the baddies?

Your what-about-ism is noted.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Total bilateral aid to Ukraine by donor & type 2024 | Statista

That was easy.

Lol

What you are showing is aid they received at their own request.
"request" is not even very accurate. It's more like begging. And they are begging for MUCH MUCH more then they are actually getting.

Meanwhile, the claim I asked evidence for was that Ukraine is being paid for waging war.
I'm sorry if you can't understand the difference.

 

[Tony B]

Referendums while under occupation by foreign forces at gunpoint are not legal.

They weren't under gunpoint and Crimea is historically Russian and occupied by Russians, it is of vital strategic importance to Russia and Russia was never going to let it fall into Western hands, which was the obvious trajectory. The Crimeans themselves see themselves as aligned to Russia, that is simply a fact. You have a complete blindspot US Imperialism, the US have been interfering in Ukrainian affairs since the end of WW2 and they've never stopped.

Are you serious? You don't know?
Russian controlled and funded armed separatist militia's in Donbas seized government buildings all over during march / april 2014.
The war of donbass actually began when Igor Girkin (a russian citizen, btw) lead a militia that seized Sloviansk.

Evidence? by evidence I mean credible sources, not the Guardian or BBC obviously.

No, I mean the 2019 elections.

Because obviously the Maidan coup, which was clearly EU and US instigated is just a bit too inconvenient.

Your what-about-ism is noted.

You seriously don't understand the significance of those numbers? of course you do, but again, it's all a bit too inconvenient. Your Overton window is at least triple glazed...

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You're still buying that Grauniad clap-trap? seriously? 'Cambridge Analytica made me do it!'

No idea what "Grauniad clap-trap" is or is supposed to be.

In any case, as a software engineer I took great interest in what Cambridge Analytica was doing (regardless of their connection with Brexiteers - they have done far worse around the world).

But essentially... yes, in a very real way "Cambridge Analytica made many do many things".
Many don't want to admit, likely out of personal pride, just how easy it is to manipulate public opinion in this day and age if you have access to social media with the proper tools.

There's a reason why the Kremlin and China uses so-called "troll farms" numbering in the thousands of individuals to spread targetted fake news and bs on social media to influence elections. What the Cambridge Analytica way did was a lot more efficient and required a lot less "fire power". They didn't need troll-farms with thousands of individuals. They had algorithms doing the heavy lifting for them.

There's a reason why they were so quick to close shop and destroy all their servers you know....

In any case, regardless of outcome, the practices they used to manipulate public opinion comes straight from playbooks of psychological warfare. Literally. That's where they got their initial know-how. And what we have here, again -regardless of outcome-, is internal politicians who willingly and knowingly use psychological warfare tactics / mechanisms on their own constituents.

I consider that to be pretty scandalous. It would be equally scandalous if Remainers used such tactics.

 

[Tony B]

No idea what "Grauniad clap-trap" is or is supposed to be.

In any case, as a software engineer I took great interest in what Cambridge Analytica was doing (regardless of their connection with Brexiteers - they have done far worse around the world).

But essentially... yes, in a very real way "Cambridge Analytica made many do many things".
Many don't want to admit, likely out of personal pride, just how easy it is to manipulate public opinion in this day and age if you have access to social media with the proper tools.

There's a reason why the Kremlin and China uses so-called "troll farms" numbering in the thousands of individuals to spread targetted fake news and bs on social media to influence elections. What the Cambridge Analytica way did was a lot more efficient and required a lot less "fire power". They didn't need troll-farms with thousands of individuals. They had algorithms doing the heavy lifting for them.

There's a reason why they were so quick to close shop and destroy all their servers you know....

In any case, regardless of outcome, the practices they used to manipulate public opinion comes straight from playbooks of psychological warfare. Literally. That's where they got their initial know-how. And what we have here, again -regardless of outcome-, is internal politicians who willingly and knowingly use psychological warfare tactics / mechanisms on their own constituents.

I consider that to be pretty scandalous. It would be equally scandalous if Remainers used such tactics.

That bolded statement is pure comedy gold, you had the Government, the Prime minister, the opposition, the media and uncle Tom Cobbley and all on your side, it could not have been a more unfair and biased lead up to the Referendum, but still you lost, and it had nothing to do with Cambridge Analytica or anyone else. I knew we would win, because I knew how the working class felt, and how we were being demonised as 'waycists' and all the other nonsense. I also understand the hubris of the sneering classes, in their detached houses in leafy suburbs, mostly unaffected by mass immigration (except for cheap labour of course), voting in their own self interest because they loved allegedly easier travel to their holiday homes in Tuscany or Bordeaux. The bad news for them was that we had the numbers, and the ruling class knew they were losing, even though they tried to rig the polls some knew what was coming, so they tried one last throw of the dice, and Jo Cox died for it.

Before you go all 'conspiracy theory' cliche on me, take a good look at the trial, or non trial of Thomas Mair, and how he was taken down in the style of a Blackadder court, and how little has ever been mentioned of it since. But the EU have form on this, Olofe Palme was conveniently murdered because he was not playing by the rule book, amongst others, and NATO's operation Gladio tells us what really goes on with the 'good guys'. The murder of Jo Cox was the last throw to completely demonise us all, it nearly worked as well, but not quite, so now we've had to endure a Brexit in name only and a complete betrayal by the whole political class, and now we have Starmer, a Tri-lateral commission stooge with the job of completing the destruction of this country in time for Agenda 2030 and real totalitarianism. The useless eliters had big taste of it in 2020 and they want more, and Starmer is their man, enjoy the hollow victory of him dragging us back into the farce that is the EU, you won't be celebrating for long, digital ID and CBDC incoming, say goodbye to whatever freedom you ever imagined you had.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Deux poids et deux mésures.

Not even close.

The solution would be to repeat the referendum with the UN supervision.

I'm all for it. Putin won't allow it.

Those regions are historical parts of Russia where people speak Russians. Ukrainians are a minority.

And if we go back even further, then Russia is a historical part of Ukraine.
All that means nothing.

I said this 100,000 times.
Let the UN supervise the referendums.

And without any arm-carrying Russians present and without being under armed occupation.
But again, all this is pointless. Putin would not allow it.

These paranoiac nonsensical urban legends

Right, right.....
Russian opposition politicians are never thrown in jail on invented charges, they are never poisoned, they never fall out of buildings,....

Uhu, all "legends". Just ask Navalny. Ow, wait............

So many Italian politicians have travelled to Russia to meet Putin.
So many times Putin has been to Rome.
Nobody has been poisoned.

So because Putin doesn't throw Italian politicians in jail or poisons them, therefor he doesn't get rid of Russian politicians that oppose him.
Great logic you got there.

It's unacceptable we have a war-promoting technocrat in Brussels. ‘Everything’ on table to help Ukraine beat Putin, Estonian PM says

The EU is a peace-loving and a pacifist organization. And a Belgian should know THAT, for Christ's sake!

You guys are spitting on 80 years of peace in EU!!!!!!!!

No, Putin is spitting on that.

Being peace-loving doesn't mean that we will, or should, bend over backwards to appease tyrants.