God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[TransmutingSoul]

That's what I'm afraid of. Flawed people imposing their rules on society and it's going to bring peace? Now if you said all people we "see" the light and become Baha'is and follow "God's" laws, then maybe there might be a chance... assuming that these laws are really from God.

Then it is time for change.

Regards Tony

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Yes, by her own definition, Judaism has to be a "revealed" religion. The supposed revealers are Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses. Did they get a revelation from God? Or, did the scribes of the Israelite people write a story about how they and their God came to be... and borrowed some legends and myths from other people's religions?

Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses left no evidence they existed. Adam and Noah most certainly did not exist as the bible's claims. Man wasn't created 6,000 years ago and there was no great flood. Abraham was a goat herder, there's no evidence of Moses and the plagues are works of nature.

Old Testament - Wikipedia unlike TB I do some research.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I already have. I am sorry you do not understand.

I am not going to do your homework. I will answer questions about the Baha'i Faith but not questions about other religions.
I live my entire life on this forum, and you want me to do more. Sorry, it is not my job to explain other religions to you.

It does not teach that but it also does not teach that I am responsible to learn about other religions and teach them to other people.

Then stop making statements about other religions.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

Is what true?

I posted a link to the part I was asking about. You seem to be playing the fool.

Doctrine[edit]
Baháʼu'lláh's teachings focus on the unity of God, religion, and mankind. Similar to other monotheistic religions, God is considered the source of all created things. Religion, according to Baháʼu'lláh, is renewed periodically by Manifestations of God, people who reflect perfections through divine intervention and whose teachings are the sources of the major world religions throughout history. Baháʼu'lláh wrote that there are no perfect personalities,[citation needed] that former Messengers of God reflected God's perfections, that there will be future Messengers of God, and that this is a key concept for understanding how all people are one with Messenger's of God. For instance, Christ is seen as embodying God by reflecting God, but he is not seen as being the whole embodiment of God. He is seen as being given his power. Baháʼís view Baháʼu'lláh as the most recent of these teachers whose mission includes the spiritual unification of the entire planet through the eradication of racism and nationalism. Baháʼu'lláh's teachings include the need for a world tribunal to adjudicate disputes between nations, a uniform system of weights and measures, and an auxiliary language that could be spoken by all the people on earth. Baháʼu'lláh also taught that the cycles of revelatory renewal will continue in the future, with Manifestations of God appearing about every thousand years. ×

 

[CG Didymus]

I already have. I am sorry you do not understand

So you think I don't understand what Baha'is mean by it? Wow! No, I disagree with it. And, if that part of the Baha'i message isn't true, then I question some of the other beliefs also. I have no problem with Baha'is believing in peace and unity. It's just that they claim is that their prophet is the promised one of every religion. And that's where progressive revelation comes in... The major religions are way too different to be from the same source, the God as defined by the Baha'is.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

No, I haven't read those.

So start. Old Testament - Wikipedia

Some of the stories of the Pentateuch may derive from older sources. American science writer Homer W. Smith points out similarities between the Genesis creation narrative and that of the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh, such as the inclusion of the creation of the first man (Adam/Enkidu) in the Garden of Eden, a tree of knowledge, a tree of life, and a deceptive serpent.[6] Scholars such as Andrew R. George point out the similarity of the Genesis flood narrative and the Gilgamesh flood myth.[7][t] Similarities between the origin story of Moses and that of Sargon of Akkad were noted by psychoanalyst Otto Rank in 1909[11] and popularized by later writers, such as H. G. Wells and Joseph Campbell.[12][13] Wells concedes in The Outline of History that "there is a growing flavour of reality in most of" the later books of the Old Testament, describing the stories of David and Solomonhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament#cite_note-34 as being detailed with "the harshest facts" only a nearly contemporary writer would likely be able to relate.[12] Similarly, Will Durant states in Our Oriental Heritage (1935):

 

[CG Didymus]

No, I haven't read those.

The Code of Hammurabi is interesting...

Hammurabi ruled from 1792 to 1750 BC (according to the middle chronology). At the head of the stone slab is Hammurabi receiving the law from Shamash,[7] and in the preface, he states, "Anu and Bel called by name me, Hammurabi, the exalted prince, who feared God, to bring about the rule of righteousness in the land, to destroy the wicked and the evil-doers; so that the strong should not harm the weak; so that I should rule over the black-headed people like Shamash, and enlighten the land, to further the well-being of mankind."​

Then here's something about this Shamash...

Utu,[a] later worshipped by the East Semitic Akkadian-speaking Assyrians and Babylonians as Shamash,https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utu#cite_note-5 was the ancient Mesopotamian sun god, god of justice, morality, and truth, and the twin of the Mesopotamian goddess Inanna (Ishtar in the Assyrio-Babylonian language), the Queen of Heaven. His main temples were in the cities of Sippar and Larsa. He was believed to ride through the heavens in his sun chariot and see all things that happened in the day. He was the enforcer of divine justice and was thought to aid those in distress. According to Sumerian mythology, he helped protect Dumuzid when the galla demons tried to drag him to the Underworld and he appeared to the hero Ziusudra after the Great Flood. In the Epic of Gilgamesh, he helps Gilgamesh defeat the ogre Humbaba.
​

Then here's something about the Epic of Gilgamesh...

The Epic of Gilgamesh (/ˈɡɪlɡəmɛʃ/)[1] is an epic poem from ancient Mesopotamia that is often regarded as the earliest surviving great work of literature and the second oldest religious text, after the Pyramid Texts.

Andrew George submits that the Genesis flood narrative matches that in Gilgamesh so closely that "few doubt" that it derives from a Mesopotamian account.[42] What is particularly noticeable is the way the Genesis flood story follows the Gilgamesh flood tale "point by point and in the same order", even when the story permits other alternatives.[43] In a 2001 Torah commentary released on behalf of the Conservative Movement of Judaism, rabbinic scholar Robert Wexler stated: "The most likely assumption we can make is that both Genesis and Gilgamesh drew their material from a common tradition about the flood that existed in Mesopotamia. These stories then diverged in the retelling."[44] Ziusudra, Utnapishtim and Noah are the respective heroes of the Sumerian, Akkadian and biblical flood legends of the ancient Near East.​

 

[Ancient Soul]

I believe that's called a double negative:

"then none of the word of God cannot be trusted"

And actually, none of the bible should be trusted.

Then what is to be trusted?

Once one has attained the spiritual level required, direct communication with the true God is possible. And THAT can be trusted and verified by how well it answers one's spiritual questions and explaining the workings of the universe.

 

[Ancient Soul]

People ask for proof of Baha'u'llah, constantly....
What us going on in America right now ALONE is proof because it was all predicted 150 years ago..
Are people really that blind?
Nuff said.

LOTS of religious zealots make such prophecy claims, but are ALWAYS based upon their religion's vague so-called prophecies that could be used to fit thousands of events that have and will continue to happen through out all eternity. Stupid stuff like:

"Behold, he foretells of great calamity before he will return."

Which could fit thousands or even MILLIONS of events. So they really mean NOTHING.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Yes. Baha'is say there has been a progression of new and better knowledge and laws of God. That in each age people should leave their old religion and follow the new religion of God. But then, they also say that each message was suited specifically to a people, a place, and a time, So the many different messages weren't really meant for all people in all cultures. Then how is that a progression of "new" knowledge? Were the people in India supposed to get rid of their many Hindu beliefs and adopt the Laws of Moses? Then the religions that did spread across several places and did replace the old religions of the people were forced on the people... like Christianity and Islam. And, since Islam was newer, was it supposed to replace Christianity? For the Baha'is yes, because they say Christianity had gotten off track by making Jesus into a God. They say Islam "corrected" that false belief.

But that means that Christians should have converted to Islam on their own without being forced. They should have recognized the truth in Muhammad's teachings and adopted the new laws from God. So maybe the early Mormons were the only Christians that were close to being right. They had multiple wives just like God wanted people to have.

Or... it's absolutely nuts to think that anyone else but the people themselves made their own laws for their own culture, for the good and the bad. Then said, "The Gods have decreed these laws. And thou shalt obey or The Gods will punish you forever and ever after you die. Oh, and The Gods have also decreed that we are in power and have the right to kill you if you don't obey. Then... after we kill you, The Gods will punish you even more.... forever and ever."

Thanks for replying with that, it made my day.

A VERY good summary of the quagmire of all the man made religions. They all claim "only they" are "right" and every other religion is "wrong". And THAT is what the religion wars are all about. Never provable, or even based upon any semblance of fact(s), just egotistical opinions on what is "right" and what is "wrong".

 

[Aupmanyav]

.. man has made the many God's.
and the closing passage is the possible key: "Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not..."

I would say man has made all Gods and Goddesses. Since it is only an assertion for which no one has given any evidence at any time.
You would notice that the line you quote also does not say it with any certainty - "or perhaps he knows not."
And that is a fact. 'What exists' is not aware of what illusion of creation humans have formed in their minds.
(Tony, this is an important point. Try to understand it. )

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I would say man has made all Gods and Goddesses. Since it is only an assertion for which no one has given any evidence at any time.
You would notice that the line you quote also does not say it with any certainty - "or perhaps he knows not."
And that is a fact. 'What exists' is not aware of what illusion of creation humans have formed in their minds.
(Tony, this is an important point. Try to understand it. )

I also see an important Message in that as well, but see it differently.

I do not see any uncertainty, but I see the passage quotes what we face in this life.

Just like you and me, I am certain about God, you are not.

Regards Tony

 

[Aupmanyav]

None that you like.

True. If any one says (as is mentioned in Qur'an) that 'don't you see the sun and moon in the sky. That is the proof that there is a God', then I am not going to accept it. Or 'since the universe exists, therefore, there is a God and only one God'.
It is like saying 'since there is an apple, therefore oranges exist.'

Just like you and me, I am certain about God, you are not.

Not correct. I am a strong atheist. I know for certain that Gods and Goddesses are human imagination and do not exist. I am not an agnostic.

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem we have for Messengers more than a 1000 years ago is we do not know how much darkness men have added to their story and word offered.

But if we believe Baha'u'llah, much darkness has been added...

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when 172 the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

Why then spend the precious little time we have in this life trying to find some Light in the older religions?

 

[Trailblazer]

If those religions were true and the "spiritual" laws were the same in each, and only the "social" laws changed we would have some continuity. But that's not what we have. All religions are different and many reflect the people and culture from which they came.

That is what we would expect to see if religions were revealed through Messengers who had different messages in every age, and then people changed them and adapted them to suit their own cultures, making them even more different.

But wait, you don't have time to explain the paragraphs prior to your quote? Or, you don't have time to read all those words that your leader wrote? Well then, I'm not going to read them. It's way too wordy... has things in it that I have no idea what he's trying to say. I'll wait for the "Baha'i Writings for Dummies" to come out.

No, I don't have time right now... I must have received over 50 posts today and I still have moles to go, and there is a backlog of posts from days ago I still have not answered. But if you remind me again when I get caught up I will try to explain what I understand of it.

 

[Trailblazer]

By your own definition you can only claim it's evidence to you and convinces you. So you fell into your own trap.

There is no trap.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Why then spend the precious little time we have in this life trying to find some Light in the older religions?

Bahaollah is concoction (20% Tanakh, 30% Bible and 50% Qur'an) prepared in 19th Century Iran. Even the Iranians did not accept it. Why not embrace science? Relativity, Chaos, Probability, Uncertainty and Quantum Mechanics; and be done with superstition and falsehood?

 

[Trailblazer]

Or, could some be that lower level type of prophet?

Could be.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you have read at least some of it? But not all of it?

Correct.

 

[Trailblazer]

Then what is all that stuff he's saying...

Exactly what He said. I have read it but I do not understand it all perfectly, nor do I need to.