God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

Adam wasn't the first Man 6,000 years ago.

Of course not. Humans have existed for about 200,000 years.

Noah is a character from Gilgamesh, we have no proof of Abraham and Moses is a story from the Egyptian and the [lagues were natural events.

I believe what Baha'u'llah wrote about them because I believe in Baha'u'llah and that he was a Manifestation of God who was infallible.

But you are right Baha'u'llah wrote about them. That doesn't make it true. JK Rowling wrote about Harry Potter doesn't mean he exists.

It makes it true for me. JK Rowling is not a Manifestation of God so he is not infallible.

Now, do you understand about how your evidence is false or are we all bashing our heads against a brick wall?

No, I do not believe my evidence is false. Evidence is just evidence, and it makes something true or false depending upon who is viewing it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, trusting people with the message is a flawed why of doing it.

CG it is how you respond that is the key, never worry about how others have acted.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

No, it is not true, Trailblazer. Jesus came some 500 years after Buddha and Mohammad 600 years after Jesus. Bahai belief about manifestations after a thousand years is false.

It is not the Baha'i belief that Manifestations of God always come every 1000 years. It is written that they generally come every 500-1000 years. What Baha'u'llah wrote about no Manifestations of God coming for 1000 years after Him is about a specific instance, it is not a generality.

 

[CG Didymus]

Thee is no reason on God's green earth why the major religions should be the same,

Yes, I agree. They all came from different times and places. The people made them up to fit what they believed to be true. And, with most of them, there was a "revealer" or a prophet or a God/man or God or a Goddess taking human form to bring the religion to the people. Many of those religions we call myth. Yet, most all of them contain mythical sounding stories in them. Why is that? Why do even Baha'is say those stories aren't literal?

Take for an example Christianity. The people said Jesus did such and such and said some things. Since some of what got written Baha'is say isn't true... like the resurrection and Satan, then where did that &*%$ come from? God or people?

 

[CG Didymus]

Because it was not a concoction, it was a Revelation from God. Of that I am certain.

Maybe, but is sure seems like a concoction. But more like a fraction of Judaism, a little bit of Christianity and a lot of Islam and very, very little of Hinduism, Buddhism and Zoroastrianism. And nothing of the many, many other religions of the world.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, trusting people with the message is a flawed way of doing it.

Personally I see it is a gift of Love. Only in this way, can we learn to really love.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I agree. They all came from different times and places. The people made them up to fit what they believed to be true. And, with most of them, there was a "revealer" or a prophet or a God/man or God or a Goddess taking human form to bring the religion to the people. Many of those religions we call myth. Yet, most all of them contain mythical sounding stories in them. Why is that? Why do even Baha'is say those stories aren't literal?

I think you are on the right track. They came from God at different times and to different places, where they were most needed. With most of them, there was a "revealer" or a prophet or a God/man or God or a Goddess taking human form to bring the religion to the people. When the religion was revealed it was pristine, but then people mucked it all up over time by misinterpreting it and adding things that were not even in the scriptures, things like the Trinity and the man-made doctrines of the Church. After a while the religion became so changed by man that it was barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and then man’s spiritual life declined. It was at that time that God revealed a new religion.

“All that lives, and this includes the religions, have springtime, a time of maturity, of harvest and wintertime. Then religion becomes barren, a lifeless adherence to the letter uninformed by the spirit, and man’s spiritual life declines. When we look at religious history, we see that God has spoken to men precisely at times when they have reached the nadir of their degradation and cultural decadence. Moses came to Israel when it was languishing under the Pharaoh’s yoke, Christ appeared at a time when the Jewish Faith had lost its power and culture of antiquity was in its death those. Muhammad came to a people who lived in barbaric ignorance at the lowest level of culture and into a world in which the former religions had strayed far away from their origins and nearly lost their identity. The Bab addressed Himself to a people who had irretrievably lost their former grandeur and who found themselves in a state of hopeless decadence. Baha’u’llah came to a humanity which was approaching the most critical phase of its history.” (Udo Schaefer, The Light Shineth in Darkness, p. 24)

 

[Trailblazer]

Maybe, but is sure seems like a concoction. But more like a fraction of Judaism, a little bit of Christianity and a lot of Islam and very, very little of Hinduism, Buddhism and Zoroastrianism. And nothing of the many, many other religions of the world.

It would make sense it might seem that way, given the chronology, and the fact that much of what is formerly revealed is renewed in successive revelations.

 

[CG Didymus]

Since 84 percent of the world population has a faith and very few of those people want to or are willing to relinquish that faith that is the MAIN reason why only a few people recognize a new Messenger when He appears on earth.

Hmmm? That's not a very good way to do it. Sounds flawed. It's almost like God gave people prophecies and other things to look for, then didn't fulfill those prophecies in a very convincing way, and then blamed the people for not recognizing his messenger.

It be like I told you I was sending you a special gift that will change your life and it will arrive in two days in a brown truck with a guy wearing brown shorts and shirt. Then, it doesn't come. Then I say it was your fault. It did come. A woman came in a white truck and you turned her away. Why didn't you accept my gift? What would you say? That you were looking for a "literal" brown truck and a man with brown shorts and shirt?

 

[Trailblazer]

Hmmm? That's not a very good way to do it. Sounds flawed. It's almost like God gave people prophecies and other things to look for, then didn't fulfill those prophecies in a very convincing way, and then blamed the people for not recognizing his messenger.

It be like I told you I was sending you a special gift that will change your life and it will arrive in two days in a brown truck with a guy wearing brown shorts and shirt. Then, it doesn't come. Then I say it was your fault. It did come. A woman came in a white truck and you turned her away. Why didn't you accept my gift? What would you say? That you were looking for a "literal" brown truck and a man with brown shorts and shirt?

It did come, and then people either sent the package back to sender without even opening it, or they opened it and did not like what was in it and then sent it back.

William Sears, Thief in the Night
.
For some people, what is offered by God is never good enough. They will always find something they do not agree with and use that as a reason to send the entire package back.

 

[CG Didymus]

Adam wasn't the first Man 6,000 years ago. Noah is a character from Gilgamesh, we have no proof of Abraham and Moses is a story from the Egyptian and the [lagues were natural events.

But you are right Baha'u'llah wrote about them. That doesn't make it true. JK Rowling wrote about Harry Potter doesn't mean he exists. Now, do you understand about how your evidence is false or are we all bashing our heads against a brick wall?

How a Baha'i interprets the flood...

You might think that such a widespread myth has some actual historical evidence to back it up, but multiple scientific investigations, conducted over many successive generations, have never produced any evidence of a global deluge, or any trace of an Ark.

Perhaps, then, these ubiquitous deluge myths signify something more, something deeply symbolic meant to inspire and educate us.

The Baha’i teachings indicate that the Ark riding the waves of a deluge refers directly to the coming of a new prophet of God, and the new principles and laws that prophet brings. Symbolically, the flood washes away the broken traces of the old religious dispensation; and remakes the Earth for the appearance of the new one, just as the spring rains and floods inundate the land and sweep the detritus of winter out to sea. As a symbol of God’s teachings and covenant, the Ark represents the salvation of the people in each era, and appears throughout the Baha’i writings, used in many different ways.
​

Then about Noah getting drunk...

Instead of falling into a drunken stupor, the Baha’i writings say Noah is “intoxicated with the wine of the All-Merciful” and “carried away with the inebriating effect of the living waters of His loving providence.”
Reading further into the story of Noah, one finds Him “uncovered within his tent.” Somewhat surprisingly, the state of nakedness in order to receive new clothes happens often in scripture:

Naked am I, O my God! Clothe me with the robe of Thy tender mercies. – Baha’u’llah, Prayers and Meditations, p. 103.

If we look at the Biblical verses metaphorically, we learn that Noah is not physically nude, but has stripped Himself of earthly desires and stands spiritually naked before God, ready to be clothed with the gift of heavenly understanding. Two of Noah’s sons—Shem and Japheth—appreciate this. They approach their father with reverence and cover Him with a fresh garment—the garment of their respect. In return, Noah promises blessings to their descendants... Noah’s other son, Ham, is appalled by what his father is doing. He does not understand that Noah has drunk the wine of a new revelation from God, and rejects the notion that Noah has been commanded to strip off his old clothes—his old traditions—in order to embark on a spiritual mission requiring different attitudes and behavior. Ham wants everything to stay as it is. Ham’s rejection of his father’s astonishing wine and heavenly clothing is continued by two of Ham’s descendants: a son named Canaan and a grandson called (aha!) Nimrod.
​

The people are real, but the story isn't literal for them? Some Baha'is get very creative in their interpretations.

 

[CG Didymus]

No, it is not true, Trailblazer. Jesus came some 500 years after Buddha and Mohammad 600 years after Jesus. Bahai belief about manifestations after a thousand years is false.

And for those that believe it, like maybe some Baha'is, when is Kalki supposed to come? What I remember it was several hundreds of thousands of years. Yet, the Baha'is make it fit. And still, they ignore all the other supposed incarnations of Vishnu that came before Krishna. I think they've got to think the stories are mythical, even the stories about Krishna, but they make the people real and historical. For me, that's another flaw in all of this.

 

[CG Didymus]

It does. Some of our near-human ancestors put red ocre on dead bodies. Must be having some kind of religion, belief. "Pieces of ochre engraved with abstract designs have been found at the site of the Blombos Cave in South Africa, dated to around 75,000 years ago." - Wikipedia
A brief note on Hinduism. It is a mix of indigenous beliefs and the belief of Indo-Europeans / Indo-Iranian Aryans. RigVeda is from times immemorial, possibly contains hymns from the time when Indo-Europeans lived in the upper reaches of Volga or Kama. It is at least 6,000 years old according to material given in it.
Shiva is an indigenous God and Rudra was an Indo-European God. Rudra assimilated with Shiva when Aryans became a part of Indians.
Rudra - Wikipedia

Baha'is, and Baha'u'llah, don't talk much about Hindu Scriptures. Why is that I wonder?

 

[CG Didymus]

It did come, and then people either sent the package back to sender without even opening it, or they opened it and did not like what was in it and then sent it back.

William Sears, Thief in the Night
.
For some people, what is offered by God is never good enough. They will always find something they do not agree with and use that as a reason to send the entire package back.

William Sears is not the infallible manifestation. Those are his interpretations. And there are some I don't agree with. As far as the package goes, the Messiah is supposed to usher in peace. We are still waiting to see if what Baha'u'llah has brought will bring peace. And, since he's dead, I guess him ruling on the throne of David is only symbolic?

 

[CG Didymus]

It makes it true for me. JK Rowling is not a Manifestation of God so he is not infallible.

He's a she. But sometimes people write biographies of people. But, maybe the writer didn't tell the story accurately. That's what I think is probably going on with the NT and the Bible. You've even called them "just" stories. So we almost agree. Like I've always said, maybe the NT is exactly right. And everything it says is literally true, but I doubt it. I think his followers embellished the stories to make Jesus into more than he was... a virtual God. They made him born of a virgin. They made him walk on water and all that other stuff. Take all that away and what is left? The parables and sayings of Jesus? How do we know those are accurate? Even the early Church leaders rejected the gospel of Thomas that has a bunch of sayings of Jesus. But we trust them and their decision to include the gospel stories they did include?

 

[CG Didymus]

CG it is how you respond that is the key, never worry about how others have acted.

Regards Tony

Sorry, I do observe how the believers in a religion act. Sometimes I wonder if they even believe their religion.

 

[CG Didymus]

Personally I see it is a gift of Love. Only in this way, can we learn to really love.

Regards Tony

I'm talking about writing it down.

 

[Trailblazer]

And still, they ignore all the other supposed incarnations of Vishnu that came before Krishna.

How do you know that there were any incarnations of Vishnu that came before Krishna, or do you just believe what Hindus say or Hindu scriptures that were passed on for generations through an oral and written tradition? Why should Baha'is believe these scriptures?

Hindu scriptures (such as the Vedas, Upanishads, Agamas, and Puranas), epics (the Bhagavad Gita and Ramayana), lawbooks, and other philosophical and denominational texts, have been passed on for generations through an oral and written tradition.

Hindu Scriptures - Hindu American Foundation

 

[Trailblazer]

William Sears is not the infallible manifestation. Those are his interpretations. And there are some I don't agree with. As far as the package goes, the Messiah is supposed to usher in peace. We are still waiting to see if what Baha'u'llah has brought will bring peace.

Baha'u'llah did usher in an age of peace:

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace because world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Baha’u’llah set up a system of government and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. They will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government). So that prophecy is a perfect fit.

And we would have had the Most Great Peace by now if the kings and rulers had not rejected Baha'u'llah, so now we will have to settle for the Lesser peace for a time, until the Most Great Peace can be established.

And, since he's dead, I guess him ruling on the throne of David is only symbolic?

Yes, it means He brought the Most Great Law.

“THE Most Great Law is come, and the Ancient Beauty ruleth upon the throne of David. Thus hath My Pen spoken that which the histories of bygone ages have related. At this time, however, David crieth aloud and saith: ‘O my loving Lord! Do Thou number me with such as have stood steadfast in Thy Cause, O Thou through Whom the faces have been illumined, and the footsteps have slipped!’” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 89-90

 

[Trailblazer]

Take all that away and what is left? The parables and sayings of Jesus? How do we know those are accurate?

I know they are accurate because they contain the same eternal spiritual truths that were revealed by Baha'u'llah the other great religions. Then there is the Baha'i viewpoint:

The Bahá'í viewpoint proposed by this essay has been established as follows: The Bible is a reliable source of Divine guidance and salvation, and rightly regarded as a sacred and holy book. However, as a collection of the writings of independent and human authors, it is not necessarily historically accurate. Nor can the words of its writers, although inspired, be strictly defined as 'The Word of God' in the way the original words of Moses and Jesus could have been. Instead there is an area of continuing interest for Bahá'í scholars, possibly involving the creation of new categories for defining authoritative religious literature.

A Baháí View of the Bible

The Bahá'ís believe what is in the Bible to be true in substance. This does not mean that every word recorded in that Book is to be taken literally and treated as the authentic saying of a Prophet....

The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments