God’s Method of delivering messages, is it flawed?

[Trailblazer]

Then stop making statements about other religions.

I know what I know about other religions because of what Baha'u'llah wrote about them. For example, I know Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses existed.

 

[Trailblazer]

I posted a link to the part I was asking about. You seem to be playing the fool.

Doctrine[edit]
Baháʼu'lláh's teachings focus on the unity of God, religion, and mankind. Similar to other monotheistic religions, God is considered the source of all created things. Religion, according to Baháʼu'lláh, is renewed periodically by Manifestations of God, people who reflect perfections through divine intervention and whose teachings are the sources of the major world religions throughout history. Baháʼu'lláh wrote that there are no perfect personalities,[citation needed] that former Messengers of God reflected God's perfections, that there will be future Messengers of God, and that this is a key concept for understanding how all people are one with Messenger's of God. For instance, Christ is seen as embodying God by reflecting God, but he is not seen as being the whole embodiment of God. He is seen as being given his power. Baháʼís view Baháʼu'lláh as the most recent of these teachers whose mission includes the spiritual unification of the entire planet through the eradication of racism and nationalism. Baháʼu'lláh's teachings include the need for a world tribunal to adjudicate disputes between nations, a uniform system of weights and measures, and an auxiliary language that could be spoken by all the people on earth. Baháʼu'lláh also taught that the cycles of revelatory renewal will continue in the future, with Manifestations of God appearing about every thousand years. ×

Yes, it's true.

 

[Trailblazer]

The major religions are way too different to be from the same source, the God as defined by the Baha'is.

Thee is no reason on God's green earth why the major religions should be the same, just because they come from the same Source, the one true God. They are different because people's needs were different in different ages.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

“These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source, and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.” Gleanings, pp. 287-288

They are also different because they have been altered by men over time.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination.” Gleanings, p. 171

 

[Trailblazer]

Bahaollah is concoction (20% Tanakh, 30% Bible and 50% Qur'an) prepared in 19th Century Iran. Even the Iranians did not accept it. Why not embrace science? Relativity, Chaos, Probability, Uncertainty and Quantum Mechanics; and be done with superstition and falsehood?

Because it was not a concoction, it was a Revelation from God. Of that I am certain.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God is essentially unknowable then how can the messengers know anything about Him? And isn't all scripture subject to human interpretation?

It is the Essence of God that is completely unknowable. We can know something of the Attributes of God by what God reveals to the Messengers and by what they reflect of God’s Attributes, since they were a mirror image of God. That is why Jesus said that whoever had seen Him had seen the Father and that He and His Father were one.

Of course all scripture is subject to human interpretation, so we just do our best to interpret it.
At least the Baha'i Faith has appointed interpreters of Baha'u'llah's Writings. No other religion ever had that.
By virtue of the Covenant of Baha'u'lah, Abdu'l-Baha was appointed by Baha'u'llah in His Will and Testament, and Shoghi Effendi was appointed by Abdu'l-Baha in His Will.

Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant

Why? We trust competent authorities all the time that aren't all knowing, all wise and all powerful.

I meant that there would be no reason to put all our trust in Him so much so that we do not question Him.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your initial claim is false. Let's look at it logically.

Your claim only represent one particular group out of the whole. So unless if it includes everyone or at the very least, the majority, then it is not the "MAIN" reason. The reason that I gave included everyone. So in short, which one can be seen as logically true as the "main" reason?

Since 84 percent of the world population has a faith and very few of those people want to or are willing to relinquish that faith that is the MAIN reason why only a few people recognize a new Messenger when He appears on earth.

Here's evidence for your irrational thinking. It's irrational to take what's posted on this forum and claim that it represents everyone in this world.

I said that evidence can be found on this forum, but I never said that the evidence cannot be found anywhere else.

The evidence that people are unwilling to relinquish their beliefs and recognize a new Messenger is simply that they don’t do so. If they did so, then the Baha’i Faith would not be only .12% of the world population. Of course there are other reasons why there are not more Baha’is in the world. Here are some of those reasons:

1. Most people are not even willing to look the evidence in order to determine if it is true or not.

2. Even if they are willing to look at the evidence, there is a lot of prejudice before even getting out the door to look at the evidence.

3. 84% of people in the world already have a religion and they are happy with their religion so they have no interest in a “new religion.”

4. The rest of the world’s population is agnostics or atheists or believers who are prejudiced against all religion.

5. Agnostics or atheists and atheists and believers who have no religion do not believe that God communicates via Messengers.

6. Baha’u’llah brought new teachings and laws that are very different from the older religions so many people are suspicious of those teachings and/or don’t like the laws.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I know what I know about other religions because of what Baha'u'llah wrote about them. For example, I know Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses existed.

Adam wasn't the first Man 6,000 years ago. Noah is a character from Gilgamesh, we have no proof of Abraham and Moses is a story from the Egyptian and the [lagues were natural events.

But you are right Baha'u'llah wrote about them. That doesn't make it true. JK Rowling wrote about Harry Potter doesn't mean he exists. Now, do you understand about how your evidence is false or are we all bashing our heads against a brick wall?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, it's true.

No, it is not true, Trailblazer. Jesus came some 500 years after Buddha and Mohammad 600 years after Jesus. Bahai belief about manifestations after a thousand years is false.

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

No, it is not true, Trailblazer. Jesus came some 500 years after Buddha and Mohammad 600 years after Jesus. Bahai belief about manifestations after a thousand years is false.

Religion goes back further than that. Timeline of religion - Wikipedia

Modern man has existed 200,000 years, we're just the last line of hominids which go back millions of years and evolved from Apes.

Did this mythical god leave us alone for 200,000 years? Because modern religions only came in the last few 1,000 years.

1700–1100 BCE
The oldest of the Hindu Vedas (scriptures), the Rig Veda was composed. This is the first mention of Rudra, a fearsome form of Shiva as the supreme god.

There were many forms of religion that came before. We were burying people 100,000 years ago. Does that indicate an early religion?

 

[Aupmanyav]

1700–1100 BCE
The oldest of the Hindu Vedas (scriptures), the Rig Veda was composed. This is the first mention of Rudra, a fearsome form of Shiva as the supreme god.
There were many forms of religion that came before. We were burying people 100,000 years ago. Does that indicate an early religion?

It does. Some of our near-human ancestors put red ocre on dead bodies. Must be having some kind of religion, belief. "Pieces of ochre engraved with abstract designs have been found at the site of the Blombos Cave in South Africa, dated to around 75,000 years ago." - Wikipedia
A brief note on Hinduism. It is a mix of indigenous beliefs and the belief of Indo-Europeans / Indo-Iranian Aryans. RigVeda is from times immemorial, possibly contains hymns from the time when Indo-Europeans lived in the upper reaches of Volga or Kama. It is at least 6,000 years old according to material given in it.
Shiva is an indigenous God and Rudra was an Indo-European God. Rudra assimilated with Shiva when Aryans became a part of Indians.
Rudra - Wikipedia

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

It does. Some of our near-human ancestors put red ocre on dead bodies. Must be having some kind of religion, belief. "Pieces of ochre engraved with abstract designs have been found at the site of the Blombos Cave in South Africa, dated to around 75,000 years ago." - Wikipedia
A brief note on Hinduism. It is a mix of indigenous beliefs and the belief of Indo-Europeans / Indo-Iranian Aryans. RigVeda is from times immemorial, possibly contains hymns from the time when Indo-Europeans lived in the upper reaches of Volga or Kama. It is at least 6,000 years old according to material given in it.
Shiva is an indigenous God and Rudra was an Indo-European God. Rudra assimilated with Shiva when Aryans became a part of Indians.
Rudra - Wikipedia

Which only confirms Man created religions.
No god would wait 200.000 years to reveal itself.

 

[CG Didymus]

Then it is time for change.

Regards Tony

Yes, if Baha'u'llah is correct in what he says. That's what we are questioning. Some things he says are problematic, and so far none of the Baha'is have answered the questions adequately. And sometimes they don't even try. You want people to use science and reason, then this is what you get... lots of questions about proving his claims.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, if Baha'u'llah is correct in what he says. That's what we are questioning. Some things he says are problematic, and so far none of the Baha'is have answered the questions adequately. And sometimes they don't even try. You want people to use science and reason, then this is what you get... lots of questions about proving his claims.

The best way is to read what Baha'u'llah offers and ask no one else CG.

If it is from God and one is searching for Truth, it is only God that guides and not any other Baha'i.

In that way, it is just and logical to state that no person can blame an individual of collective group of Baha'i for what another person has chosen not to do.

Baha'u'llah gives this plain an simple Truth

"....... Immerse yourselves in the ocean of My words, that ye may unravel its secrets, and discover all the pearls of wisdom that lie hid in its depths. Take heed that ye do not vacillate in your determination to embrace the truth of this Cause—a Cause through which the potentialities of the might of God have been revealed, and His sovereignty established. With faces beaming with joy, hasten ye unto Him. This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future. Let him that seeketh, attain it; and as to him that hath refused to seek it—verily, God is Self-Sufficient, above any need of His creatures...... "

Then this goes on to say this is the balance.

"..... Say: This is the infallible Balance which the Hand of God is holding, in which all who are in the heavens and all who are on the earth are weighed, and their fate determined, if ye be of them that believe and recognize this truth....."

Our judgement day is our reaction to what is offered from God. Our Salvation lays in acceptance or rejection. To be born again.

That has always been God's way and will continue to be.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Adam, Noah, Abraham and Moses left no evidence they existed. Adam and Noah most certainly did not exist as the bible's claims. Man wasn't created 6,000 years ago and there was no great flood. Abraham was a goat herder, there's no evidence of Moses and the plagues are works of nature.

Old Testament - Wikipedia unlike TB I do some research.

That's it exactly. The Baha'i claim is that all those guys were "manifestations" of God. So Baha'i have to believe not only that they existed, but were special creations of God that he communicated with and had them tell the rest of us what's going on with God.

But who were these people? Do the stories in the Bible make them out to be "manifestations" of God? I don't think they do. But besides that Baha'is don't even believe the Bible stories are literally true. So I ask them all the time that to me, that makes the stories fictional, or that other word... mythical. But, naturally they have "proof" or "evidence" that those people were real and were manifestations of God. And that "evidence" is that their prophet said so.

But he also said something interesting about Abraham. They claim that the Bible story is wrong in saying Isaac was taken to be sacrificed. Their prophet says it was Ishmael... Really? As if any of it real? So just like born-again Christians, Baha'is have committed themselves to believing everything their prophet has said as the absolute truth from God. Therefore, they "know" it is true, because he said so. And maybe it is, who knows? But, if it's true, then God's method of communicating is maybe getting a little better, at least he had the prophet write his own stuff down, but overall, it's still flawed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That's it exactly. The Baha'i claim is that all those guys were "manifestations" of God. So Baha'i have to believe not only that they existed, but were special creations of God that he communicated with and had them tell the rest of us what's going on with God.

But who were these people? Do the stories in the Bible make them out to be "manifestations" of God? I don't think they do. But besides that Baha'is don't even believe the Bible stories are literally true. So I ask them all the time that to me, that makes the stories fictional, or that other word... mythical. But, naturally they have "proof" or "evidence" that those people were real and were manifestations of God. And that "evidence" is that their prophet said so.

But he also said something interesting about Abraham. They claim that the Bible story is wrong in saying Isaac was taken to be sacrificed. Their prophet says it was Ishmael... Really? As if any of it real? So just like born-again Christians, Baha'is have committed themselves to believing everything their prophet has said as the absolute truth from God. Therefore, they "know" it is true, because he said so. And maybe it is, who knows? But, if it's true, then God's method of communicating is maybe getting a little better, at least he had the prophet write his own stuff down, but overall, it's still flawed.

There is a book available to explain all God's Messengers.

Spoiler

The Kitáb-i-Íqán | Bahá’í Reference Library

I may have suggested that before.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Thanks for replying with that, it made my day.

A VERY good summary of the quagmire of all the man made religions. They all claim "only they" are "right" and every other religion is "wrong". And THAT is what the religion wars are all about. Never provable, or even based upon any semblance of fact(s), just egotistical opinions on what is "right" and what is "wrong".

Yes. But as you well know, Baha'is jump right in and say they are the only true religion from God, right now. The others were okay and true in their day, until their followers screwed them up, but now is the time to turn to the Baha'i prophet who has brought the teachings from God that will fix the world's problems. Should we trust him and believe him?

 

[CG Didymus]

I also see an important Message in that as well, but see it differently.

I do not see any uncertainty, but I see the passage quotes what we face in this life.

Just like you and me, I am certain about God, you are not.

Regards Tony

And so are so many other people in so many other religions. They are all "certain". Have you ever read "Evidence that Demands a Verdict"? It "proves" or gives "evidence" about all the claims Evangelical Christians have about Jesus. Yes, they say, he rose from the dead. Yes, there is a Satan. Yes, Jesus is the one coming back. Same kind of "evidence" Baha'is are giving. One of you, or both, are wrong.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, it is not true, Trailblazer. Jesus came some 500 years after Buddha and Mohammad 600 years after Jesus. Bahai belief about manifestations after a thousand years is false.

You have misunderstood the 1000 year quote.

Baha'u'llah offered there will be no future Messenger before a full 1000 years expires.

It was not talking of past dispensations.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

The problem we have for Messengers more than a 1000 years ago is we do not know how much darkness men have added to their story and word offered.

But if we believe Baha'u'llah, much darkness has been added...

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when 172 the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

Why then spend the precious little time we have in this life trying to find some Light in the older religions?

Yes, trusting people with the message is a flawed why of doing it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And so are so many other people in so many other religions. They are all "certain". Have you ever read "Evidence that Demands a Verdict"? It "proves" or gives "evidence" about all the claims Evangelical Christians have about Jesus. Yes, they say, he rose from the dead. Yes, there is a Satan. Yes, Jesus is the one coming back. Same kind of "evidence" Baha'is are giving. One of you, or both, are wrong.

I offer the evidence.

Spoiler

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

It is what I used.

Regards Tony