God and Worship

[crunk-juice]

I see and hear very well, thanks. Where's your supposed evidence for a god? Oh right, you don't have a coherent answer.

of course he doesn't. they NEVER do, unless you listen to Ray Comfort

 

[Caladan]

Does God desire our worship? Why/why not?

You know, its hard to speculate of the complex psychology and motives of supreme beings, whether you consider them an aspect of mythology or the pillar of your faith. so if we leave aside the way a deity may view worship, I can speculate and point that I believe that worship has been a human action and phenomena, at times guided by high ideals and inner philosophy, maybe even a natural response to the deep aspects of the deity as conceived by a person or a people.

I think we need make a distinction between a personified image of a deity in need of worship, and a more complex and transcendent divinity who has been the source of inspiration for worship, whether we consider this divinity to be the product of human psychology or an actual existing spirit.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

It is important to remember that, from the POV of Christian theology, the cosmos (led by man) has set out as a kind of Prodigal Son into the unknown. Sustained by an inheritance taken too soon, man has set out to make his own way and has received the means from his Father to do so. This is part of the mystery of the Deus absconditus- the hidden God. He is letting us, as it were, have our way.

For the faithful who have turned back towards God, however, His presence is made known in us and is manifest in our lives. We live in faith what will be the case when the whole cosmos is reconciled to God, that is, when the Prodigal Son [in his totality] returns home, at the conclusion of the age.

 

[sojourner]

You said that if a god revealed himself it would be like making us love him, and then it wouldn't be love. So I repeat:

Revealing himself =/= making us love him.

No, you said this:

If an all-powerful creator wanted to be worshipped, I'm sure he could figure out a way to make us all believe.

Then I said:

That would be like making someone love you. Then it's not love.

You didn't say reveal. You said "God could make us all believe.
In fact God has revealed God's self. but you didn't believe.

That's my point. Belief in the luck of four-leaf clovers is just as credible as belief in a god.

No, it isn't because there's credible basis for such a belief. There is a credible basis for belief in God.

I never said delusion. You said delusion. I said superstition.

It doesn't matter. The point was that belief in something that is not true is delusional, which constitutes a certifiable mental disorder. Since religious faith is not listed in the DSM, it is not a disorder, and, therefore, not a belief in something that is not true.

Simply because a belief can't be proven false does not, in any way shape or form, make it "perfectly reasonable" to believe. It can't be proven false that invisible goblins want me to _______ (fill in the blank with whatever you like). That doesn't make it a "perfectly reasonable" belief.

Belief in goblins cannot be equated to belief in God. The belief in God is verifiable by a majority of the world's population, extant in many cultures, and has influenced how we divide history. That alone gives it a level of credibility that personal delusion can never equal.

The belief that the universe was designed with you in mind, that a supreme being cares deeply about you, that you'll be rewarded with eternal paradise for loving him, is comforting enough to vastly outweigh any inconveniences of holding such a belief. Holding such a belief is not a "test of strength," it's a security blanket.

You know not whereof you speak.
The universe was not designed with individuals in mind.
There is no "reward" for loving God.
I never said that holding a belief is a test of faith. You said that.

 

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by CarlinKnew
I see and hear very well, thanks. Where's your supposed evidence for a god? Oh right, you don't have a coherent answer.

of course he doesn't. they NEVER do, unless you listen to Ray Comfort

Thanks for being kind and respectful, instead of childishly sarcastic and dismissive. I don't know why you people even bother to post if you don't want to constructively debate.

If you saw and heard "very well," then you'd see and hear the evidence for yourself. I can't "produce God" for you. And it's ridiculous for anyone to think that a human being would be capable of doing such a thing. Which is a much more "coherent" answer than the sarcastic drivel you posted here.
You people just know so much more than we poor, deluded, misled, naive, stupid Believers do, don't you!

Too bad you have to make fun of us (usually with poor arguments, predicated on faulty premises) in order to feel good about yourselves. It's sad, really.

 

[Caladan]

In fact God has revealed God's self. but you didn't believe.

Thats probably off topic, but when did this happen? if we are talking about ideological writings that go almost 2000 years back, we might as well take it further back in time and believe that the gods have revealed themselves physically in the fertile crescent thousands of years before the first century 'AD'. great empires and civilizations have worshipped these gods all through the Mesopotamian longue durée.

 

[CarlinKnew]

No, you said this:

Then I said:

You didn't say reveal. You said "God could make us all believe.
In fact God has revealed God's self. but you didn't believe.

My point was that if a god wanted to be worshipped, he would have no trouble revealing himself to everyone. If this god was revealed to me I would have no choice but to believe in his existence. No god has been revealed to me.

No, it isn't because there's credible basis for such a belief. There is a credible basis for belief in God.

And what basis is that?

It doesn't matter. The point was that belief in something that is not true is delusional, which constitutes a certifiable mental disorder. Since religious faith is not listed in the DSM, it is not a disorder, and, therefore, not a belief in something that is not true.

All I can say is wow. You fail at logic. If a belief is not considered a mental disorder, that doesn't make it true.

Belief in goblins cannot be equated to belief in God. The belief in God is verifiable by a majority of the world's population, extant in many cultures, and has influenced how we divide history. That alone gives it a level of credibility that personal delusion can never equal.

And how many different gods, different superstitions have been believed throughout human history? Popularity doesn't add any credibility to a belief without evidence.

The universe was not designed with individuals in mind.

Agreed, but according to Christian theology it was designed with humanity in mind.

There is no "reward" for loving God.

Agreed, but that's the basic concept of heaven. Right and you have to apologize for your sins, I know.

 

[gnostic]

If god was to reveal himself, then I would believe in his "existence". It would necessarily mean that I would "worship" him.

From knowing his existence, I then would need to know a lot more about him - such as whether he is a good god or an evil god - before I can even begin to think of worshipping him. Just because he exist, doesn't necessarily make him "good".

To me, as given in the bible, he is no better than the Christian Devil/Satan.

In 1 Samuel 15, God did ordered Saul (through Samuel) to massacre every single Amalek, including women and even infants. That to me, is not a good god.

 

[sojourner]

Thats probably off topic, but when did this happen? if we are talking about ideological writings that go almost 2000 years back, we might as well take it further back in time and believe that the gods have revealed themselves physically in the fertile crescent thousands of years before the first century 'AD'. great empires and civilizations have worshipped these gods all through the Mesopotamian longue durée.

if that's the way people have understood Deity, so be it.

 

[sojourner]

My point was that if a god wanted to be worshipped, he would have no trouble revealing himself to everyone.

God doesn't have such trouble. Why do you have such trouble perceiving God?

If this god was revealed to me I would have no choice but to believe in his existence.

Obviously, you do have such a choice.

No god has been revealed to me.

You are, of course, the master of your own perceptions.

And what basis is that?

Shared intuition that remains a viable cultural expression.

All I can say is wow. You fail at logic.

Thanks for your awe, but I really don't deserve it. I'm glad, though that I fail at logic when I am confronted by the Ultimate.

If a belief is not considered a mental disorder, that doesn't make it true.

The mental health community is part of our society, right? And our society chooses what is true for it. Therefore, the mental health community, by not falsifying my belief tacitly endorses my belief as true -- at least as far as I am able to perceive that truth.

And how many different gods, different superstitions have been believed throughout human history? Popularity doesn't add any credibility to a belief without evidence.

Types change, but the archetypes remain.

Agreed, but according to Christian theology it was designed with humanity in mind.

You're mistaken. According to Christian theology, it was designed with God in mind.

Agreed, but that's the basic concept of heaven. Right and you have to apologize for your sins, I know.

The basic concept of heaven isn't reward. It's gift. We don't have to do anything in order to receive it.

 

[Caladan]

if that's the way people have understood Deity, so be it.

Come on thats just religious supremacy. these religions of the ancient near east at the end of the day are a huge factor in the arrival of Christianity. they do not lack engaging literature, philosophy or metaphysic theories.

 

[theonepaladin]

God desires that we love Him. Worship is part of loving God, it is the natural expression of our love for him. God does not need our worship, but we might say that we need to worship Him.

I made post in response to a similar question recently, perhaps it might help here. It is my, for the time being, Augustinian reply:

Very insightful answer!

 

[CarlinKnew]

God doesn't have such trouble. Why do you have such trouble perceiving God?

Probably because he doesn't exist.

Obviously, you do have such a choice.

You are, of course, the master of your own perceptions.

No. If some god wanted to reveal himself to me, he could do it convincingly. No gods have done so.

Shared intuition that remains a viable cultural expression.

It was once shared intuition that the world was flat, that doing a special dance would make it rain, that gods lived on Mount Olympus. Popularity doesn't add any credibility to a belief without evidence.

The mental health community is part of our society, right? And our society chooses what is true for it. Therefore, the mental health community, by not falsifying my belief tacitly endorses my belief as true -- at least as far as I am able to perceive that truth

No, you still fail at logic. Your belief is currently impossible to falsify. That doesn't make it true. It also can't be proven false that invisible goblins want me to _______ (fill in the blank with whatever you like). That doesn't make it true either.

Types change, but the archetypes remain.

Yes, when we as a poorly evolved primate species don't have a definitive explanation for something, some will blindly claim "The god(s) did it!" Others will use reason to find the real explanation. That's how it's always been, and it will probably remain that way.

You're mistaken. According to Christian theology, it was designed with God in mind.

According to Christian mythology, god designed the universe with humans in mind.

The basic concept of heaven isn't reward. It's gift. We don't have to do anything in order to receive it.

According to Christian mythology, you must repent in order to be saved.

 

[sojourner]

Come on thats just religious supremacy. these religions of the ancient near east at the end of the day are a huge factor in the arrival of Christianity. they do not lack engaging literature, philosophy or metaphysic theories.

How did I knock them? I said that if that's the way they perceive Deity, so be it! What's wrong with that?

 

[Caladan]

How did I knock them? I said that if that's the way they perceive Deity, so be it! What's wrong with that?

OK. If thats the way we perceive Deity as opposed to what?

 

[sojourner]

Probably because he doesn't exist.

If you think that, then of course you won't see God.

No. If some god wanted to reveal himself to me, he could do it convincingly. No gods have done so.

maybe God's waiting for you to reveal your heart convincingly to God.

It was once shared intuition that the world was flat, that doing a special dance would make it rain, that gods lived on Mount Olympus.

Now we have a greater understanding of how God works in the world. But that doesn't negate the intuition that God created the earth, or that we can intercede to God, or that God is higher than us.

That doesn't make it true.

It does, as far as society is concerned.

It also can't be proven false that invisible goblins want me to _______ (fill in the blank with whatever you like).

That belief is not borne out in the culture and is not culturally supported.

Yes, when we as a poorly evolved primate species don't have a definitive explanation for something, some will blindly claim "The god(s) did it!" Others will use reason to find the real explanation. That's how it's always been, and it will probably remain that way.

And we will pare away and pare away, each layer revealing more wonders of a created universe. As we approach ultimate Truth, that Truth becomes clearer. That Truth is, ultimately, God.

According to Christian mythology, god designed the universe with humans in mind.

Nope. According to Christian mythology, God designed the universe with God in mind.

According to Christian mythology, you must repent in order to be saved.

According to some Protestant thought, that may be the case. But that's certainly not the case according to "Christian mythology." And it's not the case, according to Biblical precedent.

 

[sojourner]

OK. If thats the way we perceive Deity as opposed to what?

As opposed to how we don't?

Look, if ancient Greeks perceived Deity as that particular pantheon of gods, so be it! If Hindus perceive Deity in the way they do, so be it! If Christians perceive God the way we do, so be it! I'm not knocking anybody. Everybody has a perception of the Divine. What is true for one may not be true for another. But none of us is in a position to determine ultimate Truth. All we can do is the best we can.
In the end, it's good enough.

 

[Caladan]

As opposed to how we don't?

Look, if ancient Greeks perceived Deity as that particular pantheon of gods, so be it! If Hindus perceive Deity in the way they do, so be it! If Christians perceive God the way we do, so be it! I'm not knocking anybody. Everybody has a perception of the Divine. What is true for one may not be true for another. But none of us is in a position to determine ultimate Truth. All we can do is the best we can.
In the end, it's good enough.

Yeap. I think it helps keep things in perspectives keeping in mind, that sophisticated religions have existed thousands of years before our time, and several sophisticated religions exist in our time frame as well, and on many occasions we have misconceptions just how advanced their philosophies are (deity and all).

 

[CarlinKnew]

If you think that, then of course you won't see God.

I don't think a god exists because there is no evidence for one.

maybe God's waiting for you to reveal your heart convincingly to God.

Lo and behold the power of wishful thinking. If someone truly wants to believe a god exists, or unicorns exist, or four-leaf clovers bring good luck, they can easily convince themselves of anything by suspending their logic.

Now we have a greater understanding of how God works in the world. But that doesn't negate the intuition that God created the earth, or that we can intercede to God, or that God is higher than us.

We do not have a greater understanding of how some god works. We simply have relatively new superstitions.

It does, as far as society is concerned.

If "society" believed that, it would be entirely theistic. Again, if something is not proven false, that does not make it true. This goes for unicorns, fairies, gods, any superstition you can think of.

That belief is not borne out in the culture and is not culturally supported.

It was once "culturally supported" that the world was flat, that doing a special dance would make it rain, that gods lived on Mount Olympus. Again, popularity does not add any credibility to a belief without evidence.

And we will pare away and pare away, each layer revealing more wonders of a created universe. As we approach ultimate Truth, that Truth becomes clearer. That Truth is, ultimately, God.

...each layer revealing more wonders of the universe. There is no evidence that it was intelligently designed.

Nope. According to Christian mythology, God designed the universe with God in mind.

According to some Protestant thought, that may be the case. But that's certainly not the case according to "Christian mythology." And it's not the case, according to Biblical precedent.

Different interpretations of the Bible. No big deal, I'm not interested in a scripture debate.

 

[cardero]

I may BE credited with the miracle of life. Notice that I said "credited" and not "worshipped." It was MY pleasure to enact a functional physical body for souls to inhabit, but please, put away YOUR donations.

As far as BEing Almighty, yes, I can perform many feats of NATURE and many feats of creation that YOUR society cannot begin to fathom.
So please, no more burnings of incense or animal sacrifices. The things I do, I do out of LOVE and MY fondness for sharing.

I never asked to BE worshipped or praised. Why should I? I AM just like YOU and you and you. The only difference is that I have been around longer.

HELLO IT’S ME: An Interview With GOD
Chapter: The One True God?
Pg: 323, 327