God, Free-will, and the knowledge of God - Is his knowledge causation?

[TagliatelliMonster]

Right .. you are assuming that time is absolute, and cannot be violated.
That goes against what we know about time i.e. that it is relative

You might want to read up on what "time is relative" actually means.
It doesn't mean that it can be "violated".

 

[muhammad_isa]

No. Choices happen in the present. They don't happen in the future.

I never said they did..

No, it goes hand in hand..

No, it doesn't .. unless you assume that time is absolute, and its apparent flow cannot be violated.

..but that is not the case with 'an agent' who is not part of this universe.
..and we also know that scientifically, time is NOT absolute, even in this universe.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The answer to that question matters not to the point being made.

What matters is if it is deterministic or not.
Only in a fully deterministic universe can the future be known.

No .. you miss the point.
You are so busy thinking about a "determined universe", that you discard what determines it.
That's utter nonsense.

A non-deterministic universe (which thus has entities with free will) has an uncertain future.

..and it IS uncertain, as far as we are concerned .. or are you not part of this universe?

 

[muhammad_isa]

You might want to read up on what "time is relative" actually means..

I think we know what it means .. it is relative to space (time & motion)

 

[firedragon]

You seem very focused on authority. An argument should stand on itself, independent of which expert may have used it.

Not just authority. It just shows the argument is not sound. That's why no scholar will make that kind of statement. It's absolutely illogical. Refer to the OP.

 

[Heyo]

Not just authority. It just shows the argument is not sound. That's why no scholar will make that kind of statement. It's absolutely illogical. Refer to the OP.

Alex is a philosopher (and he references others):

 

[firedragon]

Alex is a philosopher (and he references others):

Alex is no trained philosopher mate. He is a missionary and is unsophisticated. You are worshiping a missionary like a dogmatic religious person following a street preacher.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No, it doesn't .. unless you assume that time is absolute, and its apparent flow cannot be violated.

As far as is known, the flow of time cannot be violated.

You apparently think that relativity does that, but it doesn't.

..but that is not the case with 'an agent' who is not part of this universe.
..and we also know that scientifically, time is NOT absolute, even in this universe.

We don't know any of this. If anything, everything we know shows the opposite....

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No .. you miss the point.
You are so busy thinking about a "determined universe", that you discard what determines it.
That's utter nonsense.

If free choice is the determinator, then by definition the future is uncertain.
Free choice is not deterministic. That's what the "free" part stands for.

I'm sorry if you don't understand this.

..and it IS uncertain, as far as we are concerned .. or are you not part of this universe?

Ow, so your argument is just special pleading?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I think we know what it means .. it is relative to space (time & motion)

No.

It's relative to the observer.
But in all instances, from all perspectives of all observers, the arrow of time points in only one direction.
There is no "violation" of time going on.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Alex is no trained philosopher mate. He is a missionary and is unsophisticated. You are worshiping a missionary like a dogmatic religious person following a street preacher.

I love how you first claim not to be making an argument from authority, and then dismiss out of hand an argument by saying it's not made by an authority. And even pour some ad hominim sauce on top.

 

[paarsurrey]

God, Free-will, and the knowledge of God - Is his knowledge causation?

G-d knowledge does not force us to do anything or not to do anything, please, right?
So, we are free to do good and or evil, our choice, right, please?
Like Adam:
*20:116 "And verily, We had made a covenant with Adam beforehand, but he forgot, and We found in him no determination to disobey."

Regards
______________________
*
وَلَقَدۡ عَہِدۡنَاۤ اِلٰۤی اٰدَمَ مِنۡ قَبۡلُ فَنَسِیَ وَلَمۡ نَجِدۡ لَہٗ عَزۡمًا ﴿۱۱۶﴾٪

 

[Heyo]

God, Free-will, and the knowledge of God - Is his knowledge causation?

G-d knowledge does not force us to do anything or not to do anything, please, right?

We clear that up early in this debate.
Knowledge of the future does not cause a lack of free will.
The existence of a deterministic universe causes the possibility of knowledge and the lack of free will.
As it is frequently the case, two phenomena are not (directly) causally linked (even so they seem to be), but they have a common cause.

 

[Heyo]

Alex is no trained philosopher mate. He is a missionary and is unsophisticated. You are worshiping a missionary like a dogmatic religious person following a street preacher.

Don't you love it when your interlocutor tells you what you believe (or worship)?

You have disqualified yourself as a faithful debater. I'm not (yet) sending you back to the ignore list, but I will bow out of this debate with you.

 

[muhammad_isa]

As far as is known, the flow of time cannot be violated..

"as far as is known" .. meaning "we don't know"

 

[muhammad_isa]

If free choice is the determinator, then by definition the future is uncertain..

That's what our perception tells us, yes.
..but as you know, our perception is all relative to space.

i.e. we measure time in terms of space

 

[muhammad_isa]

No.

It's relative to the observer.

Doh! What is meant by "the observer", do you think?

But in all instances, from all perspectives of all observers, the arrow of time points in only one direction.

All observers? You mean, all human observers in this universe.

 

[muhammad_isa]

We clear that up early in this debate.
Knowledge of the future does not cause a lack of free will.

No, it does not.

The existence of a deterministic universe causes the possibility of knowledge and the lack of free will.

..but people use the term "determined" to mean a future that is known.
..so what's the difference?

The problem lies with the definition of "determined", and its consequences.

 

[firedragon]

Don't you love it when your interlocutor tells you what you believe (or worship)?

You have disqualified yourself as a faithful debater. I'm not (yet) sending you back to the ignore list, but I will bow out of this debate with you.

Cheap Ad hominem.

 

[firedragon]

We clear that up early in this debate.
Knowledge of the future does not cause a lack of free will.
The existence of a deterministic universe causes the possibility of knowledge and the lack of free will.
As it is frequently the case, two phenomena are not (directly) causally linked (even so they seem to be), but they have a common cause.

This is irrelevant to the topic at hand.