God, Free-will, and the knowledge of God - Is his knowledge causation?

[firedragon]

He can not deviate from what he sees in the future, otherwise his "monitor" is/was faulty...

If you read the OP, future is for you. God is beyond time. So this is a strawman.

Maybe you should read it.

 

[Trailblazer]

We do not know that he gave free will to humans. We suppose it. If God can not have free will, then neither have humans.
The problem in theists' thinking is that God can see the future.

You are right about one thing, God does have free will, since God has a will and God is free to do anything He so chooses.
As I just explained in the previous post, the fact that God can see into the future in no way precludes God having free will.

1 Samuel 15:29 "He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.”

In reality, you expect a divine being who sees the entire future as 'now,' is omniscient, infallible, and just, and gives instructions to his subordinates, to change his mind according to what is acceptable to humans.

No, God would never change His mind according to what is acceptable to humans, God would only change His mind according to what He considers just and fair. However, God revealing new teachings and laws through a new Messenger is not changing His mind, since God had planned to do that from the very beginning of time.

Was his opinion about slavery just, regardless if slavery was acceptable in the old times? Is it acceptable to order fracture for fracture, eye for eye and tooth for tooth? Is it acceptable in wars for the winners to kill all males and take all the females as slaves? If they were acceptable then, why did he change his mind and ordered to love our enemies?

I do not determine what is acceptable, God does. Maybe slavery was acceptable in the old times because there was a reason why it was necessary. We cannot understated that now since we are not living in those times. To us slavery seems atrocious, because humanity has progressed spiritually and the world we live in is much different now. There is no need for slavery and we have recognized it as unjust for a long time.

And more importantly if he could see in his "crystal ball" or "time monitor" that "the love your enemies" will be eventually the right choice, why gave different instructions before?

Because humanity was not ready to hear the message of Jesus -- love your enemies -- in the days before Jesus came.
God reveals what humanity is ready to hear and what humanity needs in any given age.

Doctors follow the science's new discoveries and are not gods. Completely irrelevant.

The analogy was apropos.

If a doctor prescribes a different medicine for you than was prescribed 10 years ago, does that mean the character of that doctor has changed?
No, it means that the needs of the patient have changed.......

Similarly, if God reveals a different message to humanity than was revealed 1000 years ago, does that mean the character of God has changed?
No, it means that the needs of humanity have changed.......

a) Because (according to theology and your acceptance) God can see all along the entire future b) He can not change his mind according to scripture and c) his orders can not be subject to his creatures wills, understanding and ethical evolution.

I said: Humans evolve spiritually and the world that we live in changes over time so why wouldn't God's message to humans change over time?

You answered:

a) Because (according to theology and your acceptance) God can see all along the entire future

So what? Just because God can see the future that does not mean that God cannot send a new message in the future.​

b) He can not change his mind according to scripture and

Sending a new Messenger with a new message is not akin to God changing His mind, since God has always known He would send a new Messenger with a new message. We can know what God was 'planning to do' by reading the prophecies of the OT and NT.​

c) his orders can not be subject to his creatures wills, understanding and ethical evolution

God's orders are not subject to what humans want, quite the contrary.​

What you wrote above supports somehow the view of many people that humans created God, and not the other way around.

No, quite the contrary. It supports the view that God does whatsoever He chooses.

 

[Ajax]

However, whatever God does in the future is not done until it is done. It is not predetermined, it will be freely chosen by God.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense, at least to me.
Either God can see the future, or he can't. If he can truly see what the future is, as if it is now, there is no reason for change (or free will for him), neither he can change anything. You seem to imply that God may change his mind when a specific future time arrives, i.e. his future decision (freely chosen as you put it). But if he has to change something later, then he either he can not see the future, or if he can, he would have seen this change in the first place, therefore there would be no need for a change, or different will.
It's very simple really, and can not understand why you present this view, as if you know exactly how God thinks..

God is giving everyone a chance to turn towards Him, but if they do not do so by God's appointed time then there will be dire consequences.

No he is not, according to Paul and other scripture.

2 Thes 2: 10-12 "...those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, 12 so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
2 Tim.1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
Acts 13:48 "And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
and many more..

........Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 204

I'm not aware of this religion's teachings and to be perfectly honest, again I'm sorry, but I'm not interested.

 

[firedragon]

Either God can see the future, or he can't.

Could you show me a scholar or philosopher in this field say that "Knowledge is the definition of free-will"?

Quote me an atheist philosopher if that's what you prefer. Not some YouTuber or a missionary, but an actual philosopher.

 

[Ajax]

If you read the OP, future is for you. God is beyond time. So this is a strawman.

Maybe you should read it.

You seem to know a lot about a God whose existence is in doubt and can not be proven, neither can be understood, according to all theologians. This is strawman.

 

[firedragon]

You seem to know a lot about a God whose existence is in doubt and can not be proven, neither can be understood, according to all theologians. This is strawman.

Give me a philosopher who said "knowledge means no free-will".

 

[Koldo]

Yes he does have free-will. He created. It shows intentionality. Free-will.

Intentionality is not free will.

 

[firedragon]

Intentionality is not free will.

The term intentionality does not define free-will, but is necessary. Making a free choice typically involves intentional mental states, such as desires, beliefs, and intentions. Thus, God made a free choice to create. It shows intentionality, agency and an adoption of responsibility. That's free-will.

"The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion." - The Oxford English Dictionary

Nothing about "knowledge of God being no-freewill or hard determinism".

So I have been asking plenty of times. Could you give me a philosopher, an atheist if you prefer, who defines No Free-Will or hard determinism as "Knowledge of God"?

 

[Koldo]

The term intentionality does not define free-will, but is necessary.

I agree.

Making a free choice typically involves intentional mental states, such as desires, beliefs, and intentions. Thus, God made a free choice to create. It shows intentionality, agency and an adoption of responsibility. That's free-will.

That's still insufficient to establish free will.

"The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion." - The Oxford English Dictionary

This one is a much much better definition.

Nothing about "knowledge of God being no-freewill or hard determinism".

So I have been asking plenty of times. Could you give me a philosopher, an atheist if you prefer, who defines No Free-Will or hard determinism as "Knowledge of God"?

Strawman. No one is defining no free will or hard determinism as knowledge of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense, at least to me.
Either God can see the future, or he can't. If he can truly see what the future is, as if it is now, there is no reason for change (or free will for him), neither he can change anything.

God can see what the future is, but if God wants to change His mind about what He will do in the future He can do that because God has a will and God is free to do whatever He wants to do. The future is not "as if it is now" because the future is not here yet.

You seem to imply that God may change his mind when a specific future time arrives, i.e. his future decision (freely chosen as you put it). But if he has to change something later, then he either he can not see the future, or if he can, he would have seen this change in the first place, therefore there would be no need for a change, or different will.

God is not really changing His mind. God is all-knowing so God has always known what He would do in the future.

Please bear in mind that scriptures were written for humans to read, and sometimes they have warnings which give people a chance to adhere to God's Will. God already knows if humans will heed those warnings, but humans don't know that since humans are not all-knowing and humans cannot see into the future.

It's very simple really, and can not understand why you present this view, as if you know exactly how God thinks..

I do not know how God thinks. All we have are scriptures that were revealed to Messengers of God in order to know what God's Will is at any given time in history.

No he is not, according to Paul and other scripture.

2 Thes 2: 10-12 "...those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, 12 so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
2 Tim.1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
Acts 13:48 "And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."
and many more..

I do not care what Paul said as it is all ancient history now, so it doesn't apply to this age. Moreover, Paul was not a Messenger of God, only Jesus was. I only care what Jesus said, but unfortunately we have no way to know what Jesus said since Jesus did not write anything down.

I'm not aware of this religion's teachings and to be perfectly honest, again I'm sorry, but I'm not interested.

Nor am I interested in the Bible which I consider irrelevant to the age in which we live, like an old newspaper.

The value the Bible has is the spiritual truths but the same spiritual truths were revealed in the Writings of Baha'u'llah.
The only other value the Bible has is that it prophesied future events so we would recognize the return of Christ, who was also the end times messiah.

 

[firedragon]

This one is a much much better definition.

What is it?

 

[firedragon]

no free will or hard determinism as knowledge of God.

That's exactly what has been taking place. If it's not your position, I do apologize. But throughout this thread, many atheists have made this case, and that's exactly what the OP is addressing.

 

[Koldo]

That's exactly what has been taking place. If it's not your position, I do apologize. But throughout this thread, many atheists have made this case, and that's exactly what the OP is addressing.

They have not made this case. This is a strawman of your own making, and a lot of people have explained it to you already.

 

[firedragon]

They have not made this case. This is a strawman of your own making, and a lot of people have explained it to you already.

Cheers.

 

[muhammad_isa]

They have not made this case. This is a strawman of your own making..

Really?
..so what does it mean, when people say that G-d knowing our future(s) mean that it is
then "determined" and we have no choice .. no free-will???

 

[Heyo]

Give me a philosopher who said "knowledge means no free-will".

You seem very focused on authority. An argument should stand on itself, independent of which expert may have used it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It very much is !
You say "we first need to make them" .. well we do

And when we do, they become fixed in the present / past. Not in the future.

At least, if our choices are actually free off course.... if they aren't, but thus rather predetermined, then you are correct.

The choices happen before the so-called future occurs.

No. Choices happen in the present. They don't happen in the future.
If I plan to visit the restaurant and make a reservation, then my restaurant visit lies in the future. However I could still decide not to go.
My order is a potential future. It could be steak, it could be chicken, it could be pizza,....
Once I place my order, the my order is not "in the future". It's in the present. Choice unfold in the present and then become the past.

What you are really thinking, is that it is not possible to know what the future is, because it hasn't occurred yet.

Yes. That's what I have been saying all along.

That is a different claim to the one about free-will.

No, it goes hand in hand.
If there were no free will, then choices would be predetermined (just like gravity).
And then, at least on principle, the future COULD be known.

All you would require is a mathematical formula that can account for the determinism in human brains so that you can actually predict the choices of humans just like you can accurately predict planetary orbits.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

God does not exist in the same realm as humans.

And I don't exist in the same realm as actors in a movie.

God has perfect foreknowledge, so everything that will ever happen to each and every person in their lives is written on the Tablet of Fate.

These events have not happened to us yet since we exist in linear time, but God knows what these events will be before they happen to us on earth.

The future has not occurred yet in this world, a world that is contingent upon time, but in the spiritual realm where God exists, there is no such thing as linear time. Rather, time and space are collapsed such that all events are knowable and as such it is possible to see everything simultaneously.

God, being omniscient, knows and foresees everything that has ever happened, what is happening now, and what will happen in the future on earth simultaneously, not linearly, but humans exist in linear time so we see things linearly.

Humans have free will and the ability to choose what we will do throughout our lives, over the course of time. Whatever we end up doing will be what God knew we would do, because God is all-knowing.

You just repeat your claims. Over and over again.
I disagree, I made my case and you aren't saying anything to convince me otherwise.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There is only one possible outcome,

Then choices can't be free.

This means that it is today already determined that tomorrow I will choose to eat out instead of cooking for myself.
It means it is already determined what I will order.
It means everything in my future is already determined and there is nothing I can do to have it play out differently.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That doesn't make sense to me .. I think you leave out the important part ..
i.e. what determines the future, deterministic or otherwise?

The answer to that question matters not to the point being made.

What matters is if it is deterministic or not.
Only in a fully deterministic universe can the future be known.
A non-deterministic universe (which thus has entities with free will) has an uncertain future. Or a bunch of "potential" futures. A potential future for every potential choice that can be made. And which one manifests is only known in the present once the free choice is made.
You could say that in a universe with free will, we have Schrodinger's future.

Simplistically stated: If I go to a restaurant which has 10 dishes to choose from, then there are 10 potential futures. The moment I decide which one to order and then order it, 9 of them are scrapped and 1 of them manifests in the present. And only then.

To have a fixed future would mean that those other 9 were already discarded before hand. Meaning it was already decided (by whatever processes) which decision I would make.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.