God, Free-will, and the knowledge of God - Is his knowledge causation?

[mikkel_the_dane]

OK, so we agree on that part of the argument.

Now we only have to work out why perfect knowledge can only exist in a deterministic universe.

In a deterministic universe, one event follows bijective on a causing event. A -> B -> C. It is like a film reel where exactly one picture follows exactly one other.
In a non-deterministic universe, that is not the case. The many-worlds-interpretation of quantum mechanics is such a non-deterministic universe, as is a classical universe with iterative processes that lead to non-computable events like the three-body-problem. In such a universe, B does not necessarily follow A. Branches are possible.
. ---> B
. /
. A
. \
. ---> C

I.e., a non-deterministic universe is defined as one where B as well as C are Events with a possibility > 0.
Perfect knowledge is defined as either B or C having a 0% possibility, i.e. an entity can know that one path will not be taken.
Do you see the contradiction?

The problem is that it holds for someone within a universe. But since we are doing God, God could be outside the universe and outside time in the following manner. God see time and non-deterministic as from in a sense all time at once and thus it doesn't matter if deterministic or not.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I asked you explain why if something is known with certainty in advance it has to be predetermined.

Because otherwise it can't be known with certainty.
To be certain of an outcome, it means that it is the only one possible. It means that the outcome can't be any other way.

This can only be if the outcome is set in stone. Predetermined (by whatever process or script or whatever - this matters not).
It means no entity has the option to make the outcome different.


Hence, in a universe where choices can be known in advanced with certainty, it means that the agent's choices are predetermined (in whatever way - which matters not). For example, I'm currently injured and there is a tennis tournament at the club next month. I'm currently pondering whether or not I will enroll. I'm not sure if I'm going to be fit in time and also have enough time for a decent preparation. So I have a decision to make.

In your universe, god already knows what I will choose. Meaning, the outcome is already set in stone. My pondering of this question is thus just an illusion. It is already determined what the outcome will be. It is already set in stone what I will choose eventually. And since that foreknowledge is apparently "certain", I have NO OTHER OPTION but to choose that outcome. I only have the illusion of choosing that outcome freely. But in reality, it's not an option. It's a certainty. Determined. Set in stone. Fate. Scripted. I am not free to choose otherwise. There is a path in front of me and I can only walk on it. I have no option or ability to turn left or right or take another path. My only option is to go with whatever lies in my future and the idea that I freely choose that path, is just an illusion at best.

Humans make choices, and that is what we are talking about, human free will to make choices.

But in your universe, there is no such thing. See above in my example. In your opinion, it is already decided if I will enroll in the tournament or not. I have no choice to choose otherwise. Whatever I supposedly "choose", it WILL be the choice that is set in stone in my future and I have no option to choose something else.

In your universe, the future is fixed and can't be altered. This can only be if all supposed "choices" are also fixed.
So there is no free choice. At best, there is only the illusion of free choice.

When a human makes a choice is made there is uncertainty in the outcome, because no human is all-knowing.

This is wrong. The uncertainty of outcome has nothing to do with ones ability to forecast.
Before Newton, there was uncertainty in outcome of where the asteroid would impact the earth, because humans were unable to calculate it since they didn't have the required knowledge to do so. That doesn't make gravity non-deterministic. The certainty of outcome was still present. It just wasn't known.

However, since God is all-knowing and has perfect foreknowledge, God can know with certainty what the human choice will be before the choice is made. Whatever choice a human makes is a free choice.

I have explained this over and over and over and over and over and over again, not only on this thread, but on another thread:

You aren't explaining anything. You are just repeating your claims.


I'm skipping the rest of your post because it's just a continuation of the same error over and over again.
You argue strawmen, keep on merely repeating your bare claims and keep on ignoring the actual arguments given.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The problem is that it holds for someone within a universe. But since we are doing God, God could be outside the universe and outside time in the following manner. God see time and non-deterministic as from in a sense all time at once and thus it doesn't matter if deterministic or not.

That has no impact at all on the point made.
The argument remains.

Either the future is fixed or it isn't.
Perfect foreknowledge requires a fixed future.
In a fixed future, all choices are set in stone and can't be deviated from.
Meaning that they aren't actually "choices", but compulsions.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That has no impact at all on the point made.
The argument remains.

Either the future is fixed or it isn't.
Perfect foreknowledge requires a fixed future.
In a fixed future, all choices are set in stone and can't be deviated from.
Meaning that they aren't actually "choices", but compulsions.

Well, you are assuming God is in time and inside the universe. If that is the case, your reasoning holds.

 

[Heyo]

The problem is that it holds for someone within a universe. But since we are doing God, God could be outside the universe and outside time in the following manner. God see time and non-deterministic as from in a sense all time at once and thus it doesn't matter if deterministic or not.

Nope, it doesn't matter where the knowing entity is, only what form the universe has.

Either it is a block universe where an outside observer sees things deterministically enfolding.
Or there is an open universe, where the outside observer sees all possible universes. But in that universe, everything that can happen does happen, and it would be akin to me saying that I see all the universes in which you roll two 6-sided dice and the result is between 2 and 12. Would you call that "perfect knowledge"?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Nope, it doesn't matter where the knowing entity is, only what form the universe has.

Either it is a block universe where an outside observer sees things deterministically enfolding.
Or there is an open universe, where the outside observer sees all possible universes. But in that universe, everything that can happen does happen, and it would be akin to me saying that I see all the universes in which you roll two 6-sided dice and the result is between 2 and 12. Would you call that "perfect knowledge"?

Your presumption is that time in the universe is the same as for a god outside the universe and its time.

If past, present and furture are all one for such a being, it doesn't matter if the furture is non-deterministic, because there is no furture for such a being.

 

[Heyo]

Your presumption is that time in the universe is the same as for a god outside the universe and its time.

Nope.

If past, present and furture are all one for such a being, it doesn't matter if the furture is non-deterministic, because there is no furture for such a being.

When time is just another dimension, we don't speak of past or future, but, as I stated, the universe has a structure, a form.
That form can be deterministic - if one time-slice follows another, or it can be non-deterministic if multiple, different time-slices follow one time-slice.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Nope.

When time is just another dimension, we don't speak of past or future, but, as I stated, the universe has a structure, a form.
That form can be deterministic - if one time-slice follows another, or it can be non-deterministic if multiple, different time-slices follow one time-slice.

Yeah, but that doesn't account for the wild card of God. Because you don't know how God knows time-slices. You only know that as you.

BTW I am an atheist, so it is not a claim in favor of God. It is the problem of what you assume in regards to what it means to know.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That has no impact at all on the point made.
The argument remains.

Either the future is fixed or it isn't.

It's fixed.
..fixed by our choices, amongst other things..

Perfect foreknowledge requires a fixed future.
In a fixed future, all choices are set in stone and can't be deviated from.

"set in stone" by what?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Because otherwise it can't be known with certainty.
To be certain of an outcome, it means that it is the only one possible. It means that the outcome can't be any other way.

This can only be if the outcome is set in stone. Predetermined (by whatever process or script or whatever - this matters not).

Whoa .. of course it matters.
..because if our choices help to determine the outcome, then your argument "we have no choice"
falls flat on its face.

The problem people have, is in the perception of flow of time .. they can't think 'out of the box'.
As Einstein said, it is only a perception, albeit a convincing one.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well, you are assuming God is in time and inside the universe.

I am not.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's fixed.
..fixed by our choices, amongst other things..

No, that's the past and present. The future can't be fixed by free choices because we first need to make them.
If free choice exists, the future is a blur which holds all potential futures based on all potential decisions that CAN be made.
Which if all those potential futures becomes "fixed" unfolds in the present as it becomes the past, when the decisions are actually made.

At least, in a universe where free will exists.

"set in stone" by what?

Doesn't matter.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Whoa .. of course it matters.

No, it doesn't. Not in context of the point being made anyway.

..because if our choices help to determine the outcome, then your argument "we have no choice"
falls flat on its face.

If the outcome is already known before we make the choices, then the choices aren't actually choices but rather compulsions. Then "choice" doesn't exist. Then the only reason we call them "choices" are because we are under the illusion that we have free choice while we actually don't.

If it is already known that I will order chicken and not steak, and if that knowledge can not turn out to be wrong, then I don't have a choice between steak and chicken. Then I am in fact COMPELLED to order chicken - by whatever process. Then at best, I only have the illusion of freely choosing chicken. In reality, I was never free to choose steak instead. It matters not what underlying process makes me pick chicken. The only point that matters, is that it wasn't a free choice on my part - not even if it felt like it was. It matters not if is determined by physics, deterministic brain chemistry, being remote controlled by a super computer, being telepathically manipulated by gods or djinn or angels,.... What matters is that the "choice" of going for chicken wasn't free but a compulsion instead.

If it is free, then I could change my mind as well and perfect foreknowledge wouldn't be possible.
Then the future would be potentially multi-fold and hold all possible futures with all potential food orders, where eventually just one of them "manifests" in the present once I actually make the free decision.

The point. You keep missing it.

The problem people have, is in the perception of flow of time .. they can't think 'out of the box'.

This is not a problem of perception of flow of time. This is a problem of a fixed future being incompatible with free will.

As Einstein said, it is only a perception, albeit a convincing one.

Not sure why you think quoting Einstein is going to help you here.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yeah, but that doesn't account for the wild card of God. Because you don't know how God knows time-slices.

He isn't claiming to know. He's responding to others making claims about god knowing the future and about free will.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No, that's the past and present. The future can't be fixed by free choices because we first need to make them.
...
This is not a problem of perception of flow of time..

It very much is !
You say "we first need to make them" .. well we do
The choices happen before the so-called future occurs.

What you are really thinking, is that it is not possible to know what the future is, because it hasn't occurred yet.
That is a different claim to the one about free-will.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If the outcome is already known before we make the choices, then the choices aren't actually choices but rather compulsions. Then "choice" doesn't exist..

Nonsense .. see my last post..

If it is already known that I will order chicken and not steak, and if that knowledge can not turn out to be wrong, then I don't have a choice between steak and chicken. Then I am in fact COMPELLED to order chicken..

No .. your logic is wrong. You are not compelled .. it simply means that that is what you choose of your own free-will. As I have already said, it is due to human perception of time flow, that causes you
to think that something known *BEFORE* affects what happens *AFTER* !!!
i.e. before and after is a perception

The only point that matters, is that it wasn't a free choice on my part - not even if it felt like it was..

Nope .. you are merely stating it as fact, as if it is "obvious" to us all that it must be true.

If it is free, then I could change my mind as well and perfect foreknowledge wouldn't be possible..

..and that's the crux of the matter .. understanding that time is relative and not absolute.

 

[Heyo]

Yeah, but that doesn't account for the wild card of God. Because you don't know how God knows time-slices. You only know that as you.

I'm not even talking about "god". I'm talking about any entity capable of knowing the future (or B-time, if you prefer) in any way.
The only way "god" could escape the dilemma, would be to not be bound by logic. Which, if you'd propose such a god, would end the debate because I don't reason with people who don't accept reason.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I'm not even talking about "god". I'm talking about any entity capable of knowing the future (or B-time, if you prefer) in any way.
The only way "god" could escape the dilemma, would be to not be bound by logic. Which, if you'd propose such a god, would end the debate because I don't reason with people who don't accept reason.

Well, the problem is that reason and logic are not given to be as universal as some people seem to think they are. E.g. we are doing several problems in reason in effect. Induction and what objective reality is as independent of the mind.

 

[Trailblazer]

- free choice requires uncertainty of outcome
- perfect foreknowldege requires certainty of outcome

Therefor, both can not exist in the same universe.

God does not exist in the same realm as humans.

God has perfect foreknowledge, so everything that will ever happen to each and every person in their lives is written on the Tablet of Fate.

These events have not happened to us yet since we exist in linear time, but God knows what these events will be before they happen to us on earth.

The future has not occurred yet in this world, a world that is contingent upon time, but in the spiritual realm where God exists, there is no such thing as linear time. Rather, time and space are collapsed such that all events are knowable and as such it is possible to see everything simultaneously.

God, being omniscient, knows and foresees everything that has ever happened, what is happening now, and what will happen in the future on earth simultaneously, not linearly, but humans exist in linear time so we see things linearly.

Humans have free will and the ability to choose what we will do throughout our lives, over the course of time. Whatever we end up doing will be what God knew we would do, because God is all-knowing.

 

[Trailblazer]

You have explained no such thing. All you are doing is simply claiming it. Over and over again.

I have explained it over and over and over and over again.
Just because you either do not understand what I explained or you reject my explanation, that does not mean I have not explained it.
And below is another explanation.

God has perfect foreknowledge, so everything that will ever happen to each and every person in their lives is written on the Tablet of Fate.

These events have not happened to us yet since we exist in linear time, but God knows what these events will be before they happen to us on earth.

The future has not occurred yet in this world, a world that is contingent upon time, but in the spiritual realm where God exists, there is no such thing as linear time. Rather, time and space are collapsed such that all events are knowable and as such it is possible to see everything simultaneously.

God, being omniscient, knows and foresees everything that has ever happened, what is happening now, and what will happen in the future on earth simultaneously, not linearly, but humans exist in linear time so we see things linearly.

Humans have free will and the ability to choose what we will do throughout our lives, over the course of time. Whatever we end up doing will be what God knew we would do, because God is all-knowing.