God, Free-will, and the knowledge of God - Is his knowledge causation?

[TagliatelliMonster]

But you cannot explain why if they are known with certainty in advance they have to be predetermined.

I did explain it. Multiple times. Stubborness is not an excuse.
It's simple logic. A free choice means, by definition, implies uncertainty in outcome.
If it can be known with certainty what the choice will be before the choice is made, then it's not a free choice - not even if it feels like one

Nobody can explain that, they just believe it.

That only seems to apply to your own position here.

Nobody can explain why God's foreknowledge of future events predetermines those events.

How can you still get this wrong? Nobody here claimed that it's the foreknowledge that predetermines the events.
In fact, I went out of my way multiple times to make it clear that it matters not WHAT or WHO or HOW the events are predetermined.

For example, I could accurately predict the site of an asteroid hit merely by calculating its predetermined trajectory by taking speed, direction and all gravitational forces into account. But that doesn't mean that my calculation or my prediction is what "predetermines" the event of impact.

What it DOES mean, is that there is predetermination there of how events will unfold and THAT is the only reason why I am able to have "perfect foreknowledge" of the event in question. If the asteroid or the gravitational force would have "free will" and thus could alter the trajectory by free choice, then it would no longer be possible to pinpoint the location of impact with certainty.

It really is that simple and I have no clue why it is being debated.
Free choice IMPLIES uncertainty of outcomes.
So it cannot exist in the same universe where outcomes can be known with certainty.

God's knowledge is not what determines how anyone's life unfolds.

And neither does my calculation of an asteroids trajectory determine the point of impact.
This is a strawman.

People determine how their life unfolds by making certain choices and acting on those choices.

And if it can be known with certainty in advance what those choices will be, then those choices are done by compulsion rather then by free will.

God knows what choices you will make because God is all-knowing

Then the choice aren't free. If it can be known with certainty that you will order chicken, then you were never free to order steak. Or to do anything else but to go to the restaurant for that matter. It means that there exists some script (by whatever means) that represents your future life and of which you are unable to differ.
It means your future is set in stone and that there is nothing you can do to change it.

God knows what you will choose before you choose it because God as perfect foreknowledge.

Again, then your future is set in stone and you are not free to change your mind about anything. Instead, you are compelled to follow the script and are unable to differ from it. That means that if you rob a bank, you were actually never free to choose not to.

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......

That is not an answer to the question. The question isn't asking about what the cause is of being compelled to act like god supposedly knows you will act.
A good way to properly understand that question is to replace the "action" with the trajectory of an asteroid and "god" with a physicist who calculates the point of impact.

Now ask the question again: if the physicist has knowledge of the point of impact of an asteroid and it has been written on the tablet of fate, is it possible for the asteroid to change direction and not impact the earth?

Would you say that answering that with "the foreknowledge of the impact is not the cause of its realization"?

Off course not.

The actual proper answer is: no, it is not possible. The gravitational forces are what they are and so are the speed and direction of the asteroid. And neither gravity nor the asteroid have the ability to just decide to change direction or alter the physical forces.

And the reason for that is that physics is deterministic.
If it weren't deterministic, then the answer would be "yes: it is possible".
But in that case, the physicist also wouldn't be able to calculate the point of impact and call it a certainty.

When you compare gravitational forces to human free will that is the fallacy of false equivalence because you are comparing apples and oranges.

No. I'm merely making a point to make you understand the difference between determinism and non-determinism.
In deterministic phenomenon, outcomes can be known with certainty.
In non-deterministic phenomenon (like free will necessarily has to be), outcomes are uncertain.

You are trying to have your cake and eat it too.
You want certainty of outcomes in non-deterministic phenomenon. This is a contradiction in terms.

But you cannot explain why they are not free.

I just did. Multiple times. Note the word "THEN".

IF the future can be known with certainty, THEN free choice can't exist.

It follows logically from the word "free" in "free choice".
It implies uncertainty of outcome.
So it can't exist in the same universe as certainty of outcome.
It's one or the other. Not both.

You just believe that is true, like a religious believer believes in God.

No.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I know that when the universe is deterministic, we can't choose. I simply disagree that everything in the universe is deterministic.

I guess what you are saying is that God's perfect foreknowledge can only exist in a deterministic universe, but that is what you have failed to explain.

First you acknowledge the implications of determinism, only to then ignore those implications in the very next sentence.

You have not explained why human free will cannot coexist with God's perfect foreknowledge.

Because perfect foreknowledge requires a deterministic universe.

 

[YoursTrue]

I did explain it. Multiple times. Stubborness is not an excuse.
It's simple logic. A free choice means, by definition, implies uncertainty in outcome.
If it can be known with certainty what the choice will be before the choice is made, then it's not a free choice - not even if it feels like one

That makes sense. To me. Which is why I don't believe that God knew what Adam and Eve would choose before they chose whether to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Naturally the possibility was there -- but He let them make the choice, and choose they did.

 

[firedragon]

What makes you think that God would know in advance every step anyone or anything would take?

That's an attribute of God. For an internal critique, it has to be from within.

 

[Trailblazer]

What's the difference between "making a prediction (to yourself)" and "knowing everything that will ever happen before, during, and after it happens on earth"?

If God knows everything that will ever happen before, during, and after it happens on earth then God does not have to predict anything...
The 'all-knowing' God already KNOWS everything that is going to happen. God does not have to guess.

What is the simple definition of prediction?

A prediction is what someone thinks will happen. A prediction is a forecast, but not only about the weather. Pre means “before” and diction has to do with talking. So a prediction is a statement about the future. It's a guess, sometimes based on facts or evidence, but not always.

Prediction - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms | Vocabulary.com

 

[Trailblazer]

Who told you that?

Nobody told me that, I read it.

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God. But that which was prophesied by the inspiration of God through the tongues of the Prophets, concerning the appearance of the Promised One of the Bible, was not the cause of the manifestation of Christ.

The hidden secrets of the future were revealed to the Prophets, and They thus became acquainted with the future events which They announced. This knowledge and these prophecies were not the cause of the occurrences. For example, tonight everyone knows that after seven hours the sun will rise, but this general foreknowledge does not cause the rising and appearance of the sun.

Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence.

In the same way, the record and the mention of a thing in the Book does not become the cause of its existence. The Prophets, through the divine inspiration, knew what would come to pass. For instance, through the divine inspiration They knew that Christ would be martyred, and They announced it. Now, was Their knowledge and information the cause of the martyrdom of Christ? No; this knowledge is a perfection of the Prophets and did not cause the martyrdom.

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image.

Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

 

[firedragon]

What's the difference between "making a prediction (to yourself)" and "knowing everything that will ever happen before, during, and after it happens on earth"?

Yeah. The difference is there in the simple statements you are comparing. Knowing and predicting. Knowing is not predicting. They are two categories.

How in the world can knowing and predicting be the same thing in simple understanding of the English language?

 

[Heyo]

If God knows everything that will ever happen before, during, and after it happens on earth then God does not have to predict anything...
The 'all-knowing' God already KNOWS everything that is going to happen. God does not have to guess.

What is the simple definition of prediction?

A prediction is what someone thinks will happen. A prediction is a forecast, but not only about the weather. Pre means “before” and diction has to do with talking. So a prediction is a statement about the future. It's a guess, sometimes based on facts or evidence, but not always.

Prediction - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms | Vocabulary.com

Yeah. The difference is there in the simple statements you are comparing. Knowing and predicting. Knowing is not predicting. They are two categories.

How in the world can knowing and predicting be the same thing in simple understanding of the English language?

So "knowing the future" is of the same certainty as an 100% failsafe prediction.
When you replace "making a prediction" with "knowing the future" it changes nothing in the logic.
An entity with perfect knowledge of the future can still only exit in a deterministic universe, and free will, therefore, can't.

 

[firedragon]

So "knowing the future" is of the same certainty as an 100% failsafe prediction.

Absolutely not. Not even linguistically.

When you replace "making a prediction" with "knowing the future" it changes nothing in the logic.

That's an illogical statement. Category error. And you have not even taken the OP into account. The concept of God you are addressing does not have a past of a future. Did you even read it?

An entity with perfect knowledge of the future can still only exit in a deterministic universe, and free will, therefore, can't.

Nope. That's absurd. Future is for you. Not for God. Read the OP.

 

[Trailblazer]

I did explain it. Multiple times. Stubborness is not an excuse.
It's simple logic. A free choice means, by definition, implies uncertainty in outcome.
If it can be known with certainty what the choice will be before the choice is made, then it's not a free choice - not even if it feels like one

That is not what I asked you to explain.
I asked you explain why if something is known with certainty in advance it has to be predetermined.

Humans make choices, and that is what we are talking about, human free will to make choices.
When a human makes a choice is made there is uncertainty in the outcome, because no human is all-knowing.
However, since God is all-knowing and has perfect foreknowledge, God can know with certainty what the human choice will be before the choice is made. Whatever choice a human makes is a free choice.

That only seems to apply to your own position here.

I have explained this over and over and over and over and over and over again, not only on this thread, but on another thread:

Why would God's ultimate power come with ultimate responsibility?

The following is a post from an atheist I was chatting with on another forum. I told him I would post it here to get other opinions. Nothing you said addresses that with ultimate power comes ultimate responsibility. The only argument you could make is that God is either not all powerful, not...

www.religiousforums.com

I have been discussing this with @Nimos. That discussion began on page 11, and it is still continuing on page 21.

For example, I could accurately predict the site of an asteroid hit merely by calculating its predetermined trajectory by taking speed, direction and all gravitational forces into account. But that doesn't mean that my calculation or my prediction is what "predetermines" the event of impact.

What it DOES mean, is that there is predetermination there of how events will unfold and THAT is the only reason why I am able to have "perfect foreknowledge" of the event in question. If the asteroid or the gravitational force would have "free will" and thus could alter the trajectory by free choice, then it would no longer be possible to pinpoint the location of impact with certainty.

You are still comparing limited human knowledge to God's unlimited knowledge which is the fallacy of false equivalence.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".
False equivalence - Wikipedia

God is all-knowing so God has perfect foreknowledge of how all events on earth will unfold.
That has nothing to do with predetermination, NOTHING. God's perfect foreknowledge of what will happen in the future does not predetermine ANYTHING. Perfect foreknowledge is an attribute of God.

It really is that simple and I have no clue why it is being debated.
Free choice IMPLIES uncertainty of outcomes.
So it cannot exist in the same universe where outcomes can be known with certainty.

t really is that simple and I have no clue why it is being debated.
When a human makes a choice that human is uncertain of the outcome.
But God knows all outcomes with certainty because God is all-knowing.

Human free will choice can exist in the same universe where outcomes can be known by God with certainty.

And if it can be known with certainty in advance what those choices will be, then those choices are done by compulsion rather then by free will.

Nope. God's perfect foreknowledge of what human choices will be in no way forces humans to make one choice or another.
God's perfect foreknowledge of what humans will choose affects human choices in no manner shape or form.

This discussion is based upon what my religion teaches about the attributes of God and how God operate as it relates to humans.
You cannot have a discussion about God when you know nothing about God. The fact that you do not know anything about God is not my fault.

Then the choice aren't free. If it can be known with certainty that you will order chicken, then you were never free to order steak. Or to do anything else but to go to the restaurant for that matter. It means that there exists some script (by whatever means) that represents your future life and of which you are unable to differ.
It means your future is set in stone and that there is nothing you can do to change it.

God does not write our scripts, God simply knows what is in our scripts because God is all-knowing.
God knows what everyone will choose to do because God is all-knowing.

Again, then your future is set in stone and you are not free to change your mind about anything. Instead, you are compelled to follow the script and are unable to differ from it. That means that if you rob a bank, you were actually never free to choose not to.

Nothing is set in stone unless it is something that God irrevocably predestined, but that is another subject.
Things that happen TO people are differnt from what people choose. We are talking about free will, thus what people choose.

I can change my mind at any time and if I do God knew I would change my mind because God is all-knowiwng.

That is not an answer to the question. The question isn't asking about what the cause is of being compelled to act like god supposedly knows you will act.
A good way to properly understand that question is to replace the "action" with the trajectory of an asteroid and "god" with a physicist who calculates the point of impact.

Now ask the question again: if the physicist has knowledge of the point of impact of an asteroid and it has been written on the tablet of fate, is it possible for the asteroid to change direction and not impact the earth?

Would you say that answering that with "the foreknowledge of the impact is not the cause of its realization"?

Off course not.

The actual proper answer is: no, it is not possible. The gravitational forces are what they are and so are the speed and direction of the asteroid. And neither gravity nor the asteroid have the ability to just decide to change direction or alter the physical forces.

And the reason for that is that physics is deterministic.
If it weren't deterministic, then the answer would be "yes: it is possible".
But in that case, the physicist also wouldn't be able to calculate the point of impact and call it a certainty.

No. I'm merely making a point to make you understand the difference between determinism and non-determinism.
In deterministic phenomenon, outcomes can be known with certainty.
In non-deterministic phenomenon (like free will necessarily has to be), outcomes are uncertain.

You are trying to have your cake and eat it too.
You want certainty of outcomes in non-deterministic phenomenon. This is a contradiction in terms.

I just did. Multiple times. Note the word "THEN".

IF the future can be known with certainty, THEN free choice can't exist.

It follows logically from the word "free" in "free choice".
It implies uncertainty of outcome.
So it can't exist in the same universe as certainty of outcome.
It's one or the other. Not both.

No.

I suggest you discuss something you actually know something about, like science. An atheist trying to discuss God and how that is related to human free will is a fool's errand. I do not go on science threads and try to discuss science because I don't know anything about science.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because perfect foreknowledge requires a deterministic universe.

God's perfect foreknowledge does not require a deterministic universe.
There is no logical connection whatsoever between what God knows and what happens in the universe.

Put another way, everything has a cause but God's knowledge does not cause ANYTHING.
That means that God's knowledge does not determine what will happen.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

 

[Koldo]

Absolutely not. Not even linguistically.

You are splitting hairs.

 

[Trailblazer]

An entity with perfect knowledge of the future can still only exit in a deterministic universe, and free will, therefore, can't.

Yet you cannot explain why.

I have explained why an entity with perfect knowledge of the future can exist in a nondeterministic universe where free will exists.
I have explained it over and over and over and over and over again, but it falls on deaf ears because either you cannot understand my explanation or you are so sure you are right that you don't even try to understand my explanation. Either way, the result is the same.

 

[YoursTrue]

If God knows everything that will ever happen before, during, and after it happens on earth then God does not have to predict anything...
The 'all-knowing' God already KNOWS everything that is going to happen. God does not have to guess.

What is the simple definition of prediction?

A prediction is what someone thinks will happen. A prediction is a forecast, but not only about the weather. Pre means “before” and diction has to do with talking. So a prediction is a statement about the future. It's a guess, sometimes based on facts or evidence, but not always.

Prediction - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms | Vocabulary.com

OK, sorry, I don't know what you mean by some of your expressions, but God certainly did not know what Adam and Eve would do when they were told NOT to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. There is no GUESSING with God because He allows choice and then makes the decision. For instance, He told Adam and Eve that IF they ate from the tree, they would certainly die. That part about death was definitely foretold. But He gave them a choice and obviously did not know in advance what they would choose. That is because God is God and is just and loving.

 

[YoursTrue]

God's perfect foreknowledge does not require a deterministic universe.
There is no logical connection whatsoever between what God knows and what happens in the universe.

Put another way, everything has a cause but God's knowledge does not cause ANYTHING.
That means that God's knowledge does not determine what will happen.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

What's a deterministic universe?

 

[Nimos]

I suggest you discuss something you actuallky know something about, like science. An atheist trying to discuss God and how that is related to human free will is a fool's errand. I do not go on science threads and try to discuss science because I don't know anything about science.

Don't want to get involved in your discussion here

But this is not a valid argument. Even as an atheist, you are fully capable of discussing God because we have scriptures and religious people's claims about what God can and can't do.

Just as you could also discuss science despite knowing little about it if what you are talking about is based on what I told you.

As an overly simplified example, let's say I told you that gravity affects everything and makes them fall to the ground and you accepted this. If I then as we were talking suddenly said that a cannonball is not affected by gravity without any explanation for why that is, then something is wrong.

If I start out by saying that everything is affected by gravity and then suddenly exclude certain things, then something is wrong with what I'm saying and you are in your full right to call me out on that, even if you are not a scientist.

 

[Trailblazer]

OK, sorry, I don't know what you mean by some of your expressions, but God certainly did not know what Adam and Eve would do when they were told NOT to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

I believe that God knew what Adam and Eve were going to do.
The OT is so anthropomorphic, making God into a man, to the point of being utterly ridiculous. God is not a man.

There is no GUESSING with God because He allows choice and then makes the decision. For instance, He told Adam and Eve that IF they ate from the tree, they would certainly die. That part about death was definitely foretold. But He gave them a choice and obviously did not know in advance what they would choose. That is because God is God and is just and loving.

What gives you the idea that God did not know what Adam and Eve would choose?

 

[Trailblazer]

What's a deterministic universe?

A universe where there is no free will to choose.

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe that God knew what Adam and Eve were going to do.
The OT is so anthropomorphic, making God into a man, to the point of being utterly ridiculous. God is not a man.

What gives you the idea that God did not know what Adam and Eve would choose?

He gave them two choices. Eat or not eat from that tree. Maybe you think your God knew in advance what they would choose. My God, the One true God spoken of in the Bible, has absolute power and can choose to see or not see.

 

[Trailblazer]

Don't want to get involved in your discussion here

Smart guy!

But this is not a valid argument. Even as an atheist, you are fully capable of discussing God because we have scriptures and religious people's claims about what God can and can't do.

That is a valid point but these atheists are not going by what my scriptures say about God and what all-knowing means.
I tell them what God can and cannot do and they do not accept that. They just go off in their own direction.

Just as you could also discuss science despite knowing little about it if what you are talking about is based on what I told you.

As an overly simplified example, let's say I told you that gravity affects everything and makes them fall to the ground and you accepted this. If I then as we were talking suddenly said that a cannonball is not affected by gravity without any explanation for why that is, then something is wrong.

If I start out by saying that everything is affected by gravity and then suddenly exclude certain things, then something is wrong with what I'm saying and you are in your full right to call me out on that, even if you are not a scientist.

I understand what you are saying, and likewise, when I say God knows everything and atheists say that God does not know everything it is my full right to call them out on that.