God, Free-will, and the knowledge of God - Is his knowledge causation?

[firedragon]

Allow me to quickly explain then. Dennett is a compatibilist and he solves the compatibility problem by doing what compatibilists do best: providing a distinct definition for free will. To Dennett, free will is the freedom to make choices without duress, rather than freedom from the causal chain.

So you are a hard determinist!!

 

[Heyo]

This argument demonstrates compatibilism's position that determinism and free will are not incompatible. If an action is motivated solely by the agent's own goals, intents, and desires and is not the result of external coercion or compulsion, it can still be free even when it is influenced by past events.

1. P 1: If an action is freely chosen, it is caused by the agent's own desires, intentions, and motivations.
   • Example: If Jane chooses to go for a run, her choice is caused by her desire to stay healthy, her intention to exercise, and her motivation to follow through.
2. P 2: An action can be considered free if it aligns with the agent's own desires, intentions, and motivations, even if these are determined by prior events.
   • Example: Jane’s desire to stay healthy might be influenced by her upbringing and past experiences, but as long as she runs because she wants to and not because she is coerced, her action is free.
3. P 3: Determinism does not imply coercion or compulsion; it only implies that events are caused by preceding events according to natural laws.
   • Example: Jane is not forced to run by an external agent; her running is a result of her own determined desires.
4. P: Coercion or compulsion occurs when an external force or agent causes an action contrary to the agent's desires, intentions, and motivations.
   • Example: If someone physically forces Jane to run against her will, this action is not free.
5. P 5: If determinism is true, and if an agent’s actions are the result of their own desires, intentions, and motivations (even if these are determined), then their actions are not coerced or compelled.
   • Example: Jane’s decision to run, arising from her determined desires, is free because it is not coerced.
6. Q:Therefore, determinism is compatible with free will.
   • Example: Jane’s freely chosen action to run, determined by her internal motivations, exemplifies that free will can exist in a deterministic framework.

This argument shows that compatibilism holds that free will and determinism are not mutually exclusive. An action can be determined by prior events and still be free if it is caused by the agent's own desires, intentions, and motivations, without coercion or compulsion from external forces.

So your claim that "no logical mind would think determinism is compatible with free-will". Now you say something about others fearing you.

).

Now, that is an argument, I can work with. Thank you.

And it turns out that @sayak83 was right, it depends on a special definition of "free will". The conclusion is already stated in premise #2. If I define "free will" as a decision that is predetermined, then free will is compatible with determinism.

But where is the freedom in that? The traditional definition "Free will is the capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action.[1]" - Free will - Wikipedia is in stark opposition to your definition, it requires the ability to choose.

Does a bacterium have free will? Its actions are in line with its own desires, intentions and motivations - even so they are all just predetermined reactions to stimuli.

And while I don't believe we have free will, I think we have at least free choice. So, just a bit above a bacterium. And I don't believe in B-time.

In summary, your argument is cyclical, as it already defined the conclusion in premise #2.

 

[firedragon]

Now, that is an argument, I can work with. Thank you.

And it turns out that @sayak83 was right, it depends on a special definition of "free will". The conclusion is already stated in premise #2. If I define "free will" as a decision that is predetermined, then free will is compatible with determinism.

But where is the freedom in that? The traditional definition "Free will is the capacity or ability to choose between different possible courses of action.[1]" - Free will - Wikipedia is in stark opposition to your definition, it requires the ability to choose.

Does a bacterium have free will? Its actions are in line with its own desires, intentions and motivations - even so they are all just predetermined reactions to stimuli.

And while I don't believe we have free will, I think we have at least free choice. So, just a bit above a bacterium. And I don't believe in B-time.

In summary, your argument is cyclical, as it already defined the conclusion in premise #2.

Cheers.

 

[paarsurrey]

God, Free-will, and the knowledge of God - Is his knowledge causation?

G-d knowledge does not force us to do anything or not to do anything, please, right?

Regards

 

[firedragon]

God, Free-will, and the knowledge of God - Is his knowledge causation?

G-d knowledge does not force us to do anything or not to do anything, please, right?

Regards

Of course. It's said in the OP.

 

[Link]

Salam

I believe God transcends time, but I don't believe that implies future exists nor the past exists. I believe only the present moment is what exists as far as what comes to creation. God is outside the present moment because he is not within time, but this doesn't imply past and future exists.

Having future knowledge as future 4d being would mean destiny and God are both forever and eternal, which is problematic for many reasons.

 

[firedragon]

Having future knowledge as future 4d being would

That's actually a strawman. For a 4D being, there is no future or past. It's above that. Beyond that. You have not understood the mathematical concept of a 4D being. God being able to see "Your Past or Your Future" in the analogy of a 4D being does not mean destiny is eternal like God. Destiny is for 3D beings (which is an analogy). You and I. Not for God. I really cannot believe you plugged in "destiny" to God. You did not understand the OP brother.

Cheers.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I wished to address this point because it's a very common objection to God's knowledge and Free-will. It's predominantly an Atheistic argument but some theists also find it confusing.

The problem with this is we see time as linear. We don't really know what's gonna happen tomorrow. We don't know what choices we will make tomorrow. But God sitting here with us today knows what choices we are gonna do tomorrow. Thus, are we truly making choices when God knows already?

The first point is that, even with this simplistic view, even if God is sitting with us today, and God has knowledge of tomorrow, knowledge is not causation, thus we do have free-will. The choices are not already made for us. We are gonna make the choices. This response is typically a theological response which is made in a philosophical manner. This is also Christian/Islamic argument. In Islamic traditions they called it Cadhr.

The second point is, mathematically one could perceive of a 4D being while we are 3D (dimensional). This is just to conceptualize God's view of our time. A big problem with the argument above is the anthropomorphism. God is not really sitting with us as a man today. God is a transcended being and he transcends time.

A 4D being who is not bound by time perceives time as just another dimension, similar to how we perceive spatial dimensions. Unlike us, who experience time linearly (past, present, future), this being can see all moments in time simultaneously. Imagine how a 3D being can see an entire 2D plane at once; similarly, a 4D being sees our entire timeline at once. They are not moving through time but can observe and interact with any point in time as easily as we move through space.

The rest is just a read that explains this 3D/4D beings. Not necessary to read but just left there for anyone who wants to.

Mathematical Concept​

1. Dimensions: In mathematics, dimensions refer to the number of coordinates needed to specify a point in a space. For example:
   • 3D Space: A point in 3D space is defined by three coordinates (x, y, z).
   • 4D Space: A point in 4D space is defined by four coordinates (x, y, z, w).
2. Time in Physics: In physics, particularly in the theory of relativity, time is often treated as the fourth dimension, leading to the concept of spacetime, where events are described by four coordinates (x, y, z, t).

4D Being and Time​

• 4D Space with Spatial Dimensions: If we consider a fourth spatial dimension (w) rather than time (t), a 4D being would perceive space as having four dimensions: (x, y, z, w).
• Perception of Time: For a 4D being, time (t) might be perceived as a static dimension, like a spatial dimension. This means they can see the entire timeline (past, present, future) simultaneously.

Visualization and Interaction​

• 2D Analogy: Imagine a 2D being on a flat plane (x, y). We, as 3D beings, can see their entire plane at once. Similarly, a 4D being can see our entire 3D space (x, y, z) and our timeline (t) at once.
• Mathematical Representation: An event in our 3D space over time is represented as (x, y, z, t). A 4D being might represent an event with an additional spatial coordinate: (x, y, z, w).

The concept of a 4D being not bound by time can be understood mathematically by considering time as an additional dimension that this being perceives all at once, much like we perceive spatial dimensions.

So that's the concept of God's transcendence. He knows that's gonna happen because from his perspective, he sees time as a line below him which he could access. He can see and interact with the future as he pleases just like the mathematical concept of a 4D being. So what's gonna happen in our perspective has already happened in a 4D beings perspective. So we have already done it. That's why he knows. And that's why we still have free-will.

Cheers.

Here's the problem: determinism.

If a being can observe "the full canvas" at once, then the "full canvas" is set in stone. And then choices aren't free, but pre-determined.
If it CAN be known, with absolute certainty, that I will order chicken tomorrow, then I was never free to order steak instead.

Just like if I in a 3D world observe an object to be a sphere (or worse: DESIGN an object to be a sphere), then that object was never "free" to be a cube instead. It had no choice.


It's really simple: either the future is set in stone / determined and CAN be known, or it isn't.
Free will can exist if it isn't. It can't if it is.
If it is, then, at best, only the illusion of free will can exist.

I can "feel" like it was my own free choice to order chicken, but in reality I was never free to order anything else.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Nevertheless, this topic is about the knowledge of God, not determinism. You have not understood the OP. You are again positing that knowledge means determinism. That's a fallacious argument.

You can say that but the reality is that you can't have one without the other.

If it is possible, by WHATEVER means, for ANYONE to know with certainty what decisions I will make tomorrow, then I am not free to decide differently when tomorrow comes.

If it is possible to step "outside" of the 4D canvas and see the ending, then stepping into the canvas at a specific point before said ending means that ALL future events leading upto that ending are determined already. And thus nobody is "free" to take different decisions then those that will lead upto that ending.

It turns reality into the equivalent of a movie with a predetermined plot (regardless of who or what or how the plot was determined - it needs not be intentional or planned) and all of us mere actors forced to play the part that is our lives. We are not at power to change those parts.
Rewinding the tape and letting it play out again will ALWAYS result in the same choices and decisions. Because they simply couldn't be any other way in that case.
They are set in stone and not free. Even if the actors have the illusion of it being otherwise.

Not at all. That's an explanation from mathematics for someone who posits that argument. Not to "box" God into that. It's for the Atheist or Theist who has problems with this atheistic argument to understand.

There's nothing "atheistic" about this.
It just follows logically. If the ending can be known (by any means, by any being), then the ending is predetermined and thus choices can't be free, since free choices would necessarily make the ending uncertain.

A certain ending is incompatible with free choices.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

That is exactly correct. The main point is that God's foreknowledge is not the cause of anything that happens, including our choices.

Nobody who argues that foreknowledge is incompatible with free will, says that this foreknowledge is the cause of anything.
That is not the argument at all.

God knows what we are going to choose but that does not limit our choices in any way.

That supposed knowledge doesn't limit our choices, correct.
But the idea that said knowledge can exist DOES mean that our choices are limited SOMEHOW.

If all choices can be known with certainty in advance, then that necessarily means that those choices aren't actually choices, but predetermined events.
Regardless by what process they are predetermined.

It's simple determinism.
Take gravity as an easy example.

The deterministic nature of gravitational forces is the only reason why you can accurately know where a rock will end up when it falls down a slope.
Now imagine that gravity was a being that had "free will" and that it could alter its force at its own pleasure. Could you still know in advance where a rock would end up when falling down a slope? You could not, off course. In fact, the being might even decide to reverse its effect and make the rock fall "upwards" instead of downwards.

Whatever we end up choosing will be what God knew we would choose because God is all-knowing.

Then choices aren't free.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I only ever said that God does not determine what humans do.

Neither did anyone else.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Brother. Think about it. Your whole thesis has been that "knowledge is determinism".

I wonder what you have been reading. He didn't say that at all.


"cheers"

 

[Trailblazer]

If all choices can be known with certainty in advance, then that necessarily means that those choices aren't actually choices, but predetermined events.
Regardless by what process they are predetermined.

But you cannot explain why if they are known with certainty in advance they have to be predetermined.
Nobody can explain that, they just believe it.

Nobody can explain why God's foreknowledge of future events predetermines those events.

God's knowledge is not what determines how anyone's life unfolds.
People determine how their life unfolds by making certain choices and acting on those choices.
God knows what choices you will make because God is all-knowing
God knows what you will choose before you choose it because God as perfect foreknowledge.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......

Some Answered Questions, p. 138

It's simple determinism.
Take gravity as an easy example.

The deterministic nature of gravitational forces is the only reason why you can accurately know where a rock will end up when it falls down a slope.
Now imagine that gravity was a being that had "free will" and that it could alter its force at its own pleasure. Could you still know in advance where a rock would end up when falling down a slope? You could not, off course. In fact, the being might even decide to reverse its effect and make the rock fall "upwards" instead of downwards.

When you compare gravitational forces to human free will that is the fallacy of false equivalence because you are comparing apples and oranges.

False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".

This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.

False equivalence - Wikipedia

Then choices aren't free.

But you cannot explain why they are not free. You just believe that is true, like a religious believer believes in God.

 

[Heyo]

But you cannot explain why if they are known with certainty in advance they have to be predetermined.
Nobody can explain that, they just believe it.

We tried to explain it to you. It is simple logic. When you have free will, you can choose between actions. When the universe is deterministic, you can't choose, i.e. you have no free will. And only in a deterministic universe, perfect foreknowledge can exist, otherwise all predictions are prone to error.
You don't have to believe it, you only have to understand simple logic.

 

[Trailblazer]

We tried to explain it to you. It is simple logic. When you have free will, you can choose between actions. When the universe is deterministic, you can't choose, i.e. you have no free will.

I know that when the universe is deterministic, we can't choose. I simply disagree that everything in the universe is deterministic.

And only in a deterministic universe, perfect foreknowledge can exist, otherwise all predictions are prone to error.
You don't have to believe it, you only have to understand simple logic.

I guess what you are saying is that God's perfect foreknowledge can only exist in a deterministic universe, but that is what you have failed to explain.
You have not explained why human free will cannot coexist with God's perfect foreknowledge.

 

[Heyo]

I guess what you are saying is that God's perfect foreknowledge can only exist in a deterministic universe, but that is what you have failed to explain.
You have not explained why human free will cannot coexist with God's perfect foreknowledge.

When you make a prediction (even when you make it just to yourself, there are two possibilities: either the prediction is perfect, or it has a chance > 0 to be false. In an open universe, there is always a chance of at least a failed prediction when free will is involved.

 

[Trailblazer]

When you make a prediction (even when you make it just to yourself, there are two possibilities: either the prediction is perfect, or it has a chance > 0 to be false. In an open universe, there is always a chance of at least a failed prediction when free will is involved.

That's true, but God does not make predictions. God already knows everything that will ever happen before, during, and after it happens on earth.
That is because God's perfect knowledge encompasses the realities of all things simultaneously.

 

[Heyo]

That's true, but God does not make predictions. God already knows everything that will ever happen before, during, and after it happens on earth.
That is because God's perfect knowledge encompasses the realities of all things simultaneously.

What's the difference between "making a prediction (to yourself)" and "knowing everything that will ever happen before, during, and after it happens on earth"?

 

[YoursTrue]

I wished to address this point because it's a very common objection to God's knowledge and Free-will. It's predominantly an Atheistic argument but some theists also find it confusing.

The problem with this is we see time as linear. We don't really know what's gonna happen tomorrow. We don't know what choices we will make tomorrow. But God sitting here with us today knows what choices we are gonna do tomorrow. Thus, are we truly making choices when God knows already?

The first point is that, even with this simplistic view, even if God is sitting with us today, and God has knowledge of tomorrow, knowledge is not causation, thus we do have free-will. The choices are not already made for us. We are gonna make the choices. This response is typically a theological response which is made in a philosophical manner. This is also Christian/Islamic argument. In Islamic traditions they called it Cadhr.

The second point is, mathematically one could perceive of a 4D being while we are 3D (dimensional). This is just to conceptualize God's view of our time. A big problem with the argument above is the anthropomorphism. God is not really sitting with us as a man today. God is a transcended being and he transcends time.

A 4D being who is not bound by time perceives time as just another dimension, similar to how we perceive spatial dimensions. Unlike us, who experience time linearly (past, present, future), this being can see all moments in time simultaneously. Imagine how a 3D being can see an entire 2D plane at once; similarly, a 4D being sees our entire timeline at once. They are not moving through time but can observe and interact with any point in time as easily as we move through space.

The rest is just a read that explains this 3D/4D beings. Not necessary to read but just left there for anyone who wants to.

Mathematical Concept​

1. Dimensions: In mathematics, dimensions refer to the number of coordinates needed to specify a point in a space. For example:
   • 3D Space: A point in 3D space is defined by three coordinates (x, y, z).
   • 4D Space: A point in 4D space is defined by four coordinates (x, y, z, w).
2. Time in Physics: In physics, particularly in the theory of relativity, time is often treated as the fourth dimension, leading to the concept of spacetime, where events are described by four coordinates (x, y, z, t).

4D Being and Time​

• 4D Space with Spatial Dimensions: If we consider a fourth spatial dimension (w) rather than time (t), a 4D being would perceive space as having four dimensions: (x, y, z, w).
• Perception of Time: For a 4D being, time (t) might be perceived as a static dimension, like a spatial dimension. This means they can see the entire timeline (past, present, future) simultaneously.

Visualization and Interaction​

• 2D Analogy: Imagine a 2D being on a flat plane (x, y). We, as 3D beings, can see their entire plane at once. Similarly, a 4D being can see our entire 3D space (x, y, z) and our timeline (t) at once.
• Mathematical Representation: An event in our 3D space over time is represented as (x, y, z, t). A 4D being might represent an event with an additional spatial coordinate: (x, y, z, w).

The concept of a 4D being not bound by time can be understood mathematically by considering time as an additional dimension that this being perceives all at once, much like we perceive spatial dimensions.

So that's the concept of God's transcendence. He knows that's gonna happen because from his perspective, he sees time as a line below him which he could access. He can see and interact with the future as he pleases just like the mathematical concept of a 4D being. So what's gonna happen in our perspective has already happened in a 4D beings perspective. So we have already done it. That's why he knows. And that's why we still have free-will.

Cheers.

What makes you think that God would know in advance every step anyone or anything would take?

 

[YoursTrue]

That's true, but God does not make predictions. God already knows everything that will ever happen before, during, and after it happens on earth.
That is because God's perfect knowledge encompasses the realities of all things simultaneously.

Who told you that?