God, Free-will, and the knowledge of God - Is his knowledge causation?

[YoursTrue]

A universe where there is no free will to choose.

Sorry but I haven't much been following this, but what do you believe? Is there free will or is there not free will?

 

[YoursTrue]

Smart guy!

That is a valid point but these atheists are not going by what my scriptures say about God and what all-knowing means.
I tell them what God can and cannot do and they do not accept that. They just go off in their own direction.

I understand what you are saying, and likewise, when I say God knows everything and atheists say that God does not know everything it is my full right to call them out on that.

Your scriptures are?? What bahaulla wrote?

 

[YoursTrue]

Smart guy!

That is a valid point but these atheists are not going by what my scriptures say about God and what all-knowing means.
I tell them what God can and cannot do and they do not accept that. They just go off in their own direction.

I understand what you are saying, and likewise, when I say God knows everything and atheists say that God does not know everything it is my full right to call them out on that.

Of course you have that right but I think you're wrong.
. Atheists have a right to say what they think about God or no God or other gods etc.

 

[Trailblazer]

He gave them two choices. Eat or not eat from that tree. Maybe you think your God knew in advance what they would choose. My God, the One true God spoken of in the Bible, has absolute power and can choose to see or not see.

The One true God spoken of in the Baha'i scriptures has absolute power and sees all. He cannot choose to see or not see.

Being all-powerful does not mean that God can choose to see or not see something.
All-powerful is an attribute of God which means that God has all power to do what God is capable of.

All-knowing is also an attribute of God and it means God knows everything, which means God knew what Adam and Eve would choose.

 

[Trailblazer]

Your scriptures are?? What bahaulla wrote?

Yes, the scriptures I go by are what Baha'u'llah wrote.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of course you have that right but I think you're wrong.
. Atheists have a right to say what they think about God or no God or other gods etc.

You can think whatever you want to think, as can atheists.
I can also think what I want to think.

If you cannot prove I am wrong to state it as a fact.

 

[Nimos]

Of course you have that right but I think you're wrong.
. Atheists have a right to say what they think about God or no God or other gods etc.

I don't think @Trailblazer point is that you don't have the right to do it. But that people have to stick to what is being claimed about God and not just make up things for the sake of argument. I haven't read this thread either, so not taking sides or saying that it is what people are doing.

But in general, it makes little sense to discuss something if it isn't based on an actual claim. Trailblazer is not defending the Christian or Islamic view of God, only her own and therefore this ought to be what people should relate to. (In case they are not doing it )

 

[Trailblazer]

Sorry but I haven't much been following this, but what do you believe? Is there free will or is there not free will?

I believe that man has free will.

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe that God knew what Adam and Eve were going to do.
The OT is so anthropomorphic, making God into a man, to the point of being utterly ridiculous. God is not a man.

What gives you the idea that God did not know what Adam and Eve would choose?

Thank you for expressing your viewpoint. My time is limited but maybe I'll get back to you

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't think @Trailblazer point is that you don't have the right to do it. But that people have to stick to what is being claimed about God and not just make up things for the sake of argument. I haven't read this thread either, so not taking sides or saying that it is what people are doing.

But in general, it makes little sense to discuss something if it isn't based on an actual claim. Trailblazer is not defending the Christian or Islamic view of God, only her own and therefore this ought to be what people should relate to. (In case they are not doing it )

I know what I think about certain things and when I was an atheist I also knew what I thought about certain things regarding religion.

 

[YoursTrue]

I believe that man has free will.

Since he gave Adam free will, where or how do you figure He knew what Adam or Eve would choose?

 

[Trailblazer]

Since he gave Adam free will, where or how do you figure He knew what Adam or Eve would choose?

God knew what Adam or Eve would choose because God is all-knowing.

 

[YoursTrue]

\

The One true God spoken of in the Baha'i scriptures has absolute power and sees all. He cannot choose to see or not see.

Being all-powerful does not mean that God can choose to see or not see something.
All-powerful is an attribute of God which means that God has all power to do what God is capable of.

All-knowing is also an attribute of God and it means God knows everything, which means God knew what Adam and Eve would choose.

Of course He can choose to see the outcome of choices. And knows what to do when He wants to do something. He does not program choices. Anyway, have a nice day. You believe your prophet(s), I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

You believe your prophet(s), I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God.

FYI, Baha'is also believe in the Bible but we have different views about it. My view lies in the middle area.

Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.

A Baháí View of the Bible

 

[YoursTrue]

FYI, Baha'is also believe in the Bible but we have different views about it. My view lies in the middle area.

What do you mean by middle area?

Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.

A Baháí View of the Bible

(whatever...I'm outta this discussion now...still have a lot to learn and a lot to read and I hope to be acceptable to the God I love and worship. Thank you.)

 

[Trailblazer]

What do you mean by middle area?

The middle area lies between the two extremes.
It is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts.

Although Bahá'ís universally share a great respect for the Bible, and acknowledge its status as sacred literature, their individual views about its authoritative status range along the full spectrum of possibilities. At one end there are those who assume the uncritical evangelical or fundamentalist-Christian view that the Bible is wholly and indisputably the word of God. At the other end are Bahá'ís attracted to the liberal, scholarly conclusion that the Bible is no more than a product of complex historical and human forces. Between these extremes is the possibility that the Bible contains the Word of God, but only in a particular sense of the phrase 'Word of God' or in particular texts. I hope to show that a Bahá'í view must lie in this middle area, and can be defined to some degree.

A Baháí View of the Bible

 

[Heyo]

Yet you cannot explain why.

I have explained why an entity with perfect knowledge of the future can exist in a nondeterministic universe where free will exists.
I have explained it over and over and over and over and over again, but it falls on deaf ears because either you cannot understand my explanation or you are so sure you are right that you don't even try to understand my explanation. Either way, the result is the same.

What's a deterministic universe?

A universe where there is no free will to choose.

OK, so we agree on that part of the argument.

Now we only have to work out why perfect knowledge can only exist in a deterministic universe.

In a deterministic universe, one event follows bijective on a causing event. A -> B -> C. It is like a film reel where exactly one picture follows exactly one other.
In a non-deterministic universe, that is not the case. The many-worlds-interpretation of quantum mechanics is such a non-deterministic universe, as is a classical universe with iterative processes that lead to non-computable events like the three-body-problem. In such a universe, B does not necessarily follow A. Branches are possible.
. ---> B
. /
. A
. \
. ---> C

I.e., a non-deterministic universe is defined as one where B as well as C are Events with a possibility > 0.
Perfect knowledge is defined as either B or C having a 0% possibility, i.e. an entity can know that one path will not be taken.
Do you see the contradiction?

 

[firedragon]

You are splitting hairs.

Cheers.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

God's perfect foreknowledge does not require a deterministic universe.

I disagree and explained why. You on the other hand just seem to repeat your bare claims.

Put another way, everything has a cause but God's knowledge does not cause ANYTHING.
That means that God's knowledge does not determine what will happen.

How many times must I repeat that causality has nothing to do with this?
How many times will you repeat this strawman?

I explicitly stated multiple times that this is not what I'm saying.
I emphasized that it matters not WHAT it is that determines the choices. What matters is simple:
- free choice requires uncertainty of outcome
- perfect foreknowldege requires certainty of outcome

Therefor, both can not exist in the same universe.

It's rather simple
It matters not what causes the certainty of outcome.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yet you cannot explain why.

We have done so multiple times and it remains completely unaddressed.
Here it is again:


- Free choice requires/implies uncertainty of outcome
- perfect foreknowledge requires/implies certainty of outcome

Therefor, both can not exist at the same time.

I have explained why an entity with perfect knowledge of the future can exist in a nondeterministic universe where free will exists.

You have explained no such thing. All you are doing is simply claiming it. Over and over again.