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God, Free-will, and the knowledge of God - Is his knowledge causation?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Because otherwise it can't be known with certainty. :shrug:
To be certain of an outcome, it means that it is the only one possible. It means that the outcome can't be any other way.
There is only one possible outcome, and God knows what that outcome will be because God is all-knowing.
But before that outcome occurred, other outcomes were possible because humans have free will to choose.

So, the outcome could have been different if a human had chosen differently, and if the outcome had been different, God would have known that the outcome would be different because God is all-knowing.
This can only be if the outcome is set in stone. Predetermined (by whatever process or script or whatever - this matters not).
It means no entity has the option to make the outcome different.
No, you are wrong. There can only be one outcome but that outcome is freely chosen, not predetermined.
Humans have the option to make the outcome different by making a different choice.
Whatever a human chooses is what God has always known that human would choose because God his all-knowing.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
I'm not even talking about "god". I'm talking about any entity capable of knowing the future (or B-time, if you prefer) in any way.
The only way "god" could escape the dilemma, would be to not be bound by logic..
Right .. let's say "an agent" capable of knowing the future.
The "dilemma" is man-made, imo..

You say "That form can be deterministic - if one time-slice follows another, or it can be non-deterministic if multiple, different time-slices follow one time-slice."

That doesn't make sense to me .. I think you leave out the important part ..
i.e. what determines the future, deterministic or otherwise?
 

Ajax

Active Member
OK, here is a different question. To borrow from theologians and theists, lets suppose for a moment that God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call "tomorrow" is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call "today". All the days are "Now" for Him. He does not "foresee" you doing things in the future, He simply sees you doing them: because, though future is not yet there for you, it is for Him.

In this case, does God have free will? Especially when scripture states that God can not and does not change.:)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
OK, here is a different question. To borrow from theologians and theists, lets suppose for a moment that God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call "tomorrow" is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call "today". All the days are "Now" for Him. He does not "foresee" you doing things in the future, He simply sees you doing them: because, though future is not yet there for you, it is for Him.
I believe that is the correct understanding.
In this case, does God have free will? Especially when scripture states that God can not and does not change.:)
I do not believe that God has free will, as humans have free will, but I believe God has a Will, so God can do whatever He chooses to do via His Will.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

No, who God is does not change, but I believe that God's messages to humanity do change over time.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Right .. let's say "an agent" capable of knowing the future.
The "dilemma" is man-made, imo..

You say "That form can be deterministic - if one time-slice follows another, or it can be non-deterministic if multiple, different time-slices follow one time-slice."

That doesn't make sense to me .. I think you leave out the important part ..
i.e. what determines the future, deterministic or otherwise?
That's irrelevant. We are working under a hypothetical: if the future is perfectly determined, then free will is impossible.
And, if the future is not perfectly determined, then perfect precognition is impossible.
 

Ajax

Active Member
do not believe that God has free will, as humans have free will, but I believe God has a Will, so God can do whatever He chooses to do via His Will.
If God - who can see the future as "now" - does not have free will, how is it possible for humans to have? How our actions can be free if they are already set in time, and even God can not change them? Because if he could change them, he would not have seen them as they were in the first place.
No, who God is does not change, but I believe that God's messages to humanity do change over time.
Again, it is impossible for God's messages to change over time if he knows the future, let alone that he can not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17, etc.). As an example, no God could ever give instructions like "fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth" and then years later say "if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also" and "love your enemies". This is all so terribly false and contradictory, in my opinion.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
That's irrelevant. We are working under a hypothetical: if the future is perfectly determined, then free will is impossible.
"perfectly determined" by what???

And, if the future is not perfectly determined, then perfect precognition is impossible.
Right .. you are assuming that time is absolute, and cannot be violated.
That goes against what we know about time i.e. that it is relative
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
"perfectly determined" by what???
Fate, the laws of physics, the Flying Spaghetti Monster - it doesn't matter.
Right .. you are assuming that time is absolute, and cannot be violated.
That goes against what we know about time i.e. that it is relative
I'm assuming that the arrow of time is absolute, i.e. travelling back in time is impossible. How fast time flows relative to other places doesn't influence what will happen.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Of course it matters!
What about if it's determined by our choices?
That's not what the word "determined" means.
Exactly .. which doesn't apply to an agent external to the universe.
That's an interesting new concept.
Up till now, we were considering an external entity that could view all of time in an instant.
You introduce an agent that could change the past. I see a lot of paradoxes coming your way. You may even have broken causality.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
That's not what the word "determined" means.
It's a bit of an oxymoron..
The future has to be determined by something .. and it can't be determined by itself,
which is what many people imply by their use of "determined" .

That's an interesting new concept.

Up till now, we were considering an external entity that could view all of time in an instant.
You introduce an agent that could change the past..
Can Dr. who ? ;)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If God - who can see the future as "now" - does not have free will, how is it possible for humans to have?
Humans have free will because God gave fr will to humans. As I said before, God has a will, it is different from a human free will.
How our actions can be free if they are already set in time, and even God can not change them? Because if he could change them, he would not have seen them as they were in the first place.
It is not true that human actions are already set in time, and even God can not change them. Human actions are not set until a human makes a choice and causes those actions to occur. God could influence a human choice and change what we otherwise would have chosen if He wanted to, and maybe sometimes God does that.

God knows and sees everything, whether or not it was a choice we made or a choice that He influenced.
Again, it is impossible for God's messages to change over time if he knows the future,
Why couldn't God's messages humanity change over time if Hod knows the future? Since God knows the future, God has always known that the messages would change in the future. Indeed, many Bible prophecies are about what will happen in the future, what God has always known would happen, and that includes the messages that God would reveal through a new Messenger, who would be the return of Christ and the Messiah the Jews have long awaited.
let alone that he can not change (Malachi 3:6; James 1:17, etc.).
Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Those verses above mean that the attributes of God, God's character, does not ever change, but that does not mean God cannot change His messages to humanity.

If a doctor prescribes a different medicine for you than was prescribed 10 years ago, does that mean the character of that doctor has changed? No, it means that the needs of the patient have changed.

“The Prophets of God should be regarded as physicians whose task is to foster the well-being of the world and its peoples, that, through the spirit of oneness, they may heal the sickness of a divided humanity. To none is given the right to question their words or disparage their conduct, for they are the only ones who can claim to have understood the patient and to have correctly diagnosed its ailments. No man, however acute his perception, can ever hope to reach the heights which the wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician have attained. Little wonder, then, if the treatment prescribed by the physician in this day should not be found to be identical with that which he prescribed before. How could it be otherwise when the ills affecting the sufferer necessitate at every stage of his sickness a special remedy? In like manner, every time the Prophets of God have illumined the world with the resplendent radiance of the Day Star of Divine knowledge, they have invariably summoned its peoples to embrace the light of God through such means as best befitted the exigencies of the age in which they appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 80
As an example, no God could ever give instructions like "fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth" and then years later say "if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also" and "love your enemies". This is all so terribly false and contradictory, in my opinion.
Why would scriptures that were revealed to an ancient people in ancient times still be valid for people living in modern times?

According to my beliefs, God can do whatever God wants to do because God is all-powerful. God is also all-knowing and all-wise, so God knows what humanity needs at any time throughout history. That is why the teachings of Jesus differ from those of Moses, as do some of the laws that were revealed.

Humans evolve spiritually and the world that we live in changes over time so why wouldn't God's message to humans change over time?
I believe that the world will be much different 1000 years from now, so God will send another Messenger with a new message that will be suitable for that new age. Meanwhile, I believe we should be following the message that God has revealed for the age we are living in.

“The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements.” Gleanings, p. 213
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
OK, here is a different question. To borrow from theologians and theists, lets suppose for a moment that God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call "tomorrow" is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call "today". All the days are "Now" for Him. He does not "foresee" you doing things in the future, He simply sees you doing them: because, though future is not yet there for you, it is for Him.

In this case, does God have free will? Especially when scripture states that God can not and does not change.:)
Yes he does have free-will. He created. It shows intentionality. Free-will.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Do you believe in a deterministic model?
No, as I already said, there seems to be no determinism in radioactive decay and even outside quantum mechanics we see chaos in things like the three-body-problem.
The universe is orderly in most aspects and at least statistically comprehensible, but it is not B-time-like deterministic.
 

Ajax

Active Member
Humans have free will because God gave fr will to humans. As I said before, God has a will, it is different from a human free will.
We do not know that he gave free will to humans. We suppose it. If God can not have free will, then neither have humans.
The problem in theists' thinking is that God can see the future.
Those verses above mean that the attributes of God, God's character, does not ever change, but that does not mean God cannot change His messages to humanity.

If a doctor prescribes a different medicine for you than was prescribed 10 years ago, does that mean the character of that doctor has changed? No, it means that the needs of the patient have changed.......
1 Samuel 15:29 "He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.

In reality, you expect a divine being who sees the entire future as 'now,' is omniscient, infallible, and just, and gives instructions to his subordinates, to change his mind according to what is acceptable to humans. Was his opinion about slavery just, regardless if slavery was acceptable in the old times? Is it acceptable to order fracture for fracture, eye for eye and tooth for tooth? Is it acceptable in wars for the winners to kill all males and take all the females as slaves? If they were acceptable then, why did he change his mind and ordered to love our enemies?
And more importantly if he could see in his "crystal ball" or "time monitor" that "the love your enemies" will be eventually the right choice, why gave different instructions before?

Doctors follow the science's new discoveries and are not gods. Completely irrelevant.
Humans evolve spiritually and the world that we live in changes over time so why wouldn't God's message to humans change over time?
a) Because (according to theology and your acceptance) God can see all along the entire future b) He can not change his mind according to scripture and c) his orders can not be subject to his creatures wills, understanding and ethical evolution.
What you wrote above supports somehow the view of many people that humans created God, and not the other way around.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No he doesn't, because this is what he already knew looking at his "time-monitor". He can not deviate from what he sees in the future, otherwise his "monitor" is/was faulty...:)
What God sees in the future is already known to God because God knows what He will do in the future.
However, whatever God does in the future is not done until it is done. It is not predetermined, it will be freely chosen by God.

God can plan to do something and then change His mind according to what humans decide to do.
In other words, some things that God does are contingent upon what humans will decide to do.

God is giving everyone a chance to turn towards Him, but if they do not do so by God's appointed time then there will be dire consequences.

“He Who is the Eternal Truth knoweth well what the breasts of men conceal. His long forbearance hath emboldened His creatures, for not until the appointed time is come will He rend any veil asunder. His surpassing mercy hath restrained the fury of His wrath, and caused most people to imagine that the one true God is unaware of the things they have privily committed. By Him Who is the All-Knowing, the All-Informed! The mirror of His knowledge reflecteth, with complete distinctness, precision and fidelity, the doings of all men.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 204

God is giving everyone a chance to turn towards Him, in order to avoid the chastisement, but God is not going to wait forever.

“We have a fixed time for you, O peoples. If ye fail, at the appointed hour, to turn towards God, He, verily, will lay violent hold on you, and will cause grievous afflictions to assail you from every direction. How severe, indeed, is the chastisement with which your Lord will then chastise you!”
Gleanings, p. 214
 
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