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God gave us mind to know Him,or deny Him?

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
As creationist texts go, this is one of the best I have seen.

It is still mistaken and misleading in claiming that there is such a thing as a "macroevolution" that has been "assumed to be the rule" despite being "hardly observable".

The implication is that there is fair doubt on whether speciation (what it wants to call macroevolution) happens. And that is not at all true.

Why this is not Creationism

A refutation of the universal tree-like structure of evolution should not be confused with anti-Darwinism. In fact, Darwin’s contribution is astonishing for just how accurate he was on such a wide array of topics, far ahead of his time. Not to mention what he was up against. Biblical creationism was a powerful force in the nineteenth century and much of Darwin’s scientific evidence was framed as a refutation of supernatural origin, as is evident from reading his work.
The modern debate is not so different. There are a number of popular authors (Dawkins, Coyne) that continue writing about evolution as if the only options are natural selection and intelligent design. Unfortunately, attempts to falsify the doctrine of universal common descent are viewed as contrary to natural selection and supportive of young-earth creationism. Creationists, for their part, have written persuasively about evolution by arguing against a set of misunderstandings about evolution. Within this dichotomy, a superficial understanding of the issue would lump Baha'i beliefs together with those of creationists. But a spectrum with fundamentalist Christian creationism on one end, and scientific consensus on the other, would show Baha'i belief almost totally aligned with the consensus. Yet not perfectly aligned.
Baha’i belief differs in the details of speciation, providing a model that might be called parallel evolution, polygenesis, or independent descent. This conflicts with the principle of universal common ancestry, a major pillar of Darwinism, but does not conflict with natural selection, competition, or adaptation. The idea of numerous genealogical trees growing in parallel from unique starting points through entirely natural processes, as opposed to descent exclusively by divergence, has never been investigated in earnest by the mainstream. It’s not on their radar. In this context, `Abdu’l-Baha’s view is an unresolved question. If the theory were correct and proven, it would rank among the greatest revolutions in evolutionary science.
`Abdu'l-Baha acknowledged the conflict and believed it would be reconciled. He said that, "in the future it will become evident and clear, and the European philosophers will themselves realize" the truth of his statements. There is no need to invoke a supernatural event, so the model of species forming from unique starting points is entirely within the realm of testable science, where creationism (a.k.a. intelligent design) is not.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I don't call you lair.

I find different definitions about theory of evolution or scientific theory.

I find this interesting defintion of theory of evolution :

Is Evolution a Theory or a Fact?
It is both. But that answer requires looking more deeply at the meanings of the words "theory" and "fact."

http://www.nas.edu/evolution/TheoryOrFact.html

This is what I agree with , fact in present, theory of past.

Right but that's not what it's about - we have observed huge divergences of biological forms over the course of the fossil record and through genetic history. There have been changes.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I don't call you lair.

I find different definitions about theory of evolution or scientific theory.

I find this interesting defintion of theory of evolution :

Is Evolution a Theory or a Fact?
It is both. But that answer requires looking more deeply at the meanings of the words "theory" and "fact."

http://www.nas.edu/evolution/TheoryOrFact.html

This is what I agree with , fact in present, theory of past.
So we're all in agreement, then? This article says exactly what Kirran, Luis and I have been trying to explain.

But I still don't understand what you mean by "fact in present, theory in past."
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Right but that's not what it's about - we have observed huge divergences of biological forms over the course of the fossil record and through genetic history. There have been changes.

We discuss this many times , I gave you my opinion.
We are apparently in disagreement .

I am done :)
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
"Premature?" What claims are you hearing that are premature, LoH? All scientific claims are provisional, nothing is ever proved. If we wait till they're mature, whatever that means, we'll be waiting forever.

But what we claim to know is pretty robust: germs cause disease, Earth revolves around the Sun, water consists of hydrogen + oxygen, animals change form over time.

What does "our own evolutionary path" mean? How does this differ from the path of a porcupine or oak tree?

How does "knowledge that come from God" differ from knowledge that comes from observation and testing? Every religion claims different knowledge from God, and none of it is testable -- which may be why there are so many differing claims.

Didn't Baha'u'llah say that if there's a discrepancy between religion and science, we should defer to science?

All we believe is there is evolution within species but not cross migration. So humans can evolve into diverse humans etc But did not evolve from the apes.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
All we believe is there is evolution within species but not cross migration. So humans can evolve into diverse humans etc But did not evolve from the apes.
No-one's claiming we descended from apes. In point of fact, genetic studies indicate we are a species of ape.

You're claiming small changes can't accumulate; that 'evolution' stops at some point to avoid going too far and producing a new species. How does it know to do this?
This is like saying that language changes might produce dialects, but can never cross the barrier and produce new, mutually unintelligible languages.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
No-one's claiming we descended from apes. In point of fact, genetic studies indicate we are a species of ape.

You're claiming small changes can't accumulate; that 'evolution' stops at some point to avoid going too far and producing a new species. How does it know to do this?
This is like saying that language changes might produce dialects, but can never cross the barrier and produce new, mutually unintelligible languages.

I'm saying we are not a species of ape. That we belong to only the human species.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Which is different than scientific fact.

I will make an exemple :
This is scientific fact.
1+1=2

Guessing X and F is the theory.
x + f = 54569847

I thought we were talking about scientific facts and proofs? Mathematics is very different. You present a false equivalency.
Maths has axioms and proofs. Science does not.

I still suspect that you don't understand what a scientific theory is.
Godobeyer doesn't understand science...that much is clear, Valjean.

And given his example, it is crystal clear that Godobeyer don't understand mathematics too.

Godobeyer just shot himself in the foot with such an absurd example.

I find it very hilarious that he is going to lecture us about maths and science when he fails to understand the differences between theory and hypothesis, between evidences and faith.

I think he is confused. So if you explain to the differences, I don't think he going to learn, simply because he can't learn...

...if he did learn, then he would have to admit that he has been wrong all those years, and I think he has too much ego and immaturity for such admission.
 
Last edited:

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Why this is not Creationism

You may call it theocentric denial of Science instead. It is what it is.

A refutation of the universal tree-like structure of evolution should not be confused with anti-Darwinism. In fact, Darwin’s contribution is astonishing for just how accurate he was on such a wide array of topics, far ahead of his time. Not to mention what he was up against. Biblical creationism was a powerful force in the nineteenth century and much of Darwin’s scientific evidence was framed as a refutation of supernatural origin, as is evident from reading his work.
The modern debate is not so different. There are a number of popular authors (Dawkins, Coyne) that continue writing about evolution as if the only options are natural selection and intelligent design.
Intelligent design is not an option, indeed.

Unfortunately, attempts to falsify the doctrine of universal common descent are viewed as contrary to natural selection and supportive of young-earth creationism. Creationists, for their part, have written persuasively about evolution by arguing against a set of misunderstandings about evolution. Within this dichotomy, a superficial understanding of the issue would lump Baha'i beliefs together with those of creationists. But a spectrum with fundamentalist Christian creationism on one end, and scientific consensus on the other, would show Baha'i belief almost totally aligned with the consensus. Yet not perfectly aligned.
Baha’i belief differs in the details of speciation, providing a model that might be called parallel evolution, polygenesis, or independent descent. This conflicts with the principle of universal common ancestry, a major pillar of Darwinism, but does not conflict with natural selection, competition, or adaptation. The idea of numerous genealogical trees growing in parallel from unique starting points through entirely natural processes, as opposed to descent exclusively by divergence, has never been investigated in earnest by the mainstream. It’s not on their radar. In this context, `Abdu’l-Baha’s view is an unresolved question. If the theory were correct and proven, it would rank among the greatest revolutions in evolutionary science.
`Abdu'l-Baha acknowledged the conflict and believed it would be reconciled. He said that, "in the future it will become evident and clear, and the European philosophers will themselves realize" the truth of his statements. There is no need to invoke a supernatural event, so the model of species forming from unique starting points is entirely within the realm of testable science, where creationism (a.k.a. intelligent design) is not.

Sure, you may presume a miraculous origin of humanity. although I think you should make it a bit more clear that people may accept or reject that belief as they wiull.

But to propose that all evidence only indicates that we "look like" apes is ludicrous. It is going way too far in attempting to make humanity one-of-a-kind, and it relies on ignorance of biology.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
You may call it theocentric denial of Science instead. It is what it is.


Intelligent design is not an option, indeed.



Sure, you may presume a miraculous origin of humanity. although I think you should make it a bit more clear that people may accept or reject that belief as they wiull.

But to propose that all evidence only indicates that we "look like" apes is ludicrous. It is going way too far in attempting to make humanity one-of-a-kind, and it relies on ignorance of biology.

The pre publication is available to anyone who would like to read it and can send me an email address to send it to as I don't think I can post it here.

But it goes into a lot more depth than the bit I've posted here.
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Yes. But not out of artistic preference alone, and not disregarding what is known already.
For Darwin was know what he did.it's was fact at his time to his fans.
Thoery is not equal to fact

Much known and unknow things we are on disagreement.

It's known for most of human being that human body and others species are designed, you and @Mestemia on disagreement on this fact. to avoid the question "who was the designer".
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
Godobeyer doesn't understand science...that much is clear, Valjean.

And given his example, it is crystal clear that Godobeyer don't understand mathematics too.

Godobeyer just shot himself in the foot with such an absurd example.

I find it very hilarious that he is going to lecture us about maths and science when he fails to understand the differences between theory and hypothesis, evidences and faith.

I think he is confused. So if you explain to the differences, I don't think he going to learn, simply because he can't learn...

...if he did learn, then he would have to admit that he has been wrong all those years, and I think he has too much ego and immaturity for such admission.
Science in part had two parts fact/theory .

What you try to do is giving theory a degree of fact.

to become like this :

"The fact of evolution" instead of "theory of evolution".

that clear fraud and playing with meaning.
 

Kirran

Premium Member
I'm going to say this straight: Godobeyer, you need to learn better English so you can understand the difference between theory in science and in other uses. Either that, or you to actually listen to what people are trying to teach you about the meaning of this word. If you're going to ignore the entire other side of the discussion then claim victory, what's the point discussing with people?
 

Godobeyer

the word "Islam" means "submission" to God
Premium Member
I'm going to say this straight: Godobeyer, you need to learn better English so you can understand the difference between theory in science and in other uses. Either that, or you to actually listen to what people are trying to teach you about the meaning of this word. If you're going to ignore the entire other side of the discussion then claim victory, what's the point discussing with people?
Its seems me who try to teach you to make difference between theory vs fact in science :)


Top 10 Most Famous Scientific Theories (That Turned out to be wrong)

Top 10 Most Famous Scientific Theories That Turned out to be Wrong

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-most-famous-scientific-theories-that-turned-out-to-be-wrong.php

Top 10 Most Famous Scientific Theories That Turned out to be Wrong


Even some what we consider as fact turned wrong by time (had other explaination):

25 Science “Facts” That Were Proven Wrong
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Its seems me who try to teach you to make difference between theory vs fact in science :)


Top 10 Most Famous Scientific Theories (That Turned out to be wrong)

Top 10 Most Famous Scientific Theories That Turned out to be Wrong

http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-most-famous-scientific-theories-that-turned-out-to-be-wrong.php

Top 10 Most Famous Scientific Theories That Turned out to be Wrong


Even some what we consider as fact turned wrong by time (had other explaination):

25 Science “Facts” That Were Proven Wrong

I think that we have to maintain a balance with regards to scientific truth. What is proven should be unquestionably accepted by one and all but where there is uncertainty, disagreement and not complete agreement then maybe we can accept it provisionally until some more better explanation comes along.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
For Darwin was know what he did.it's was fact at his time to his fans.
Thoery is not equal to fact

Much known and unknow things we are on disagreement.
That is true, but does not affect these matters. The evidence has been conclusive for several decades already.

You can't reasonably expect us to pretend ignorance to protect your beliefs.


It's known for most of human being that human body and others species are designed,
Quite wrong, Godobeyer. That is a popular belief, and a very pretentious one at that.

It is not only not "known", but it is also arrogant and unsupported.

you and @Mestemia on disagreement on this fact. to avoid the question "who was the designer".
Eh. Do you really think we even have to go through the trouble of avoiding a question that does not make any sense?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm saying we are not a species of ape. That we belong to only the human species.
How do you explain the clear genetic linkage? My claim is backed by evidence. Yours is backed by.... folklore? incredulity?
Science in part of theories is not sacred,
much updated.
That's exactly what we've been telling you. Scientific knowledge is always provisional; always being added to. But the big picture remains the same: Earth circles the Sun, germs cause disease, species change over time. These remain facts, only the details about mechanisms and timelines change.
For Darwin was know what he did.it's was fact at his time to his fans.
Thoery is not equal to fact
According to your own link in post #180, which you say you agree with, they are equivalent. Please reread it.
It's known for most of human being that human body and others species are designed, you and @Mestemia on disagreement on this fact. to avoid the question "who was the designer".
This is not known by most. The human body is a product of unplanned, natural mechanisms that should be understood by anyone who's ever had a biology course.
Science in part had two parts fact/theory .
What you try to do is giving theory a degree of fact.
to become like this :
"The fact of evolution" instead of "theory of evolution".
that clear fraud and playing with meaning.
Godobeyer, you're being incredibly obtuse. This has been explained to you, but the explanation apparently goes in one ear and out the other.
Evolution and the theory of evolution are two different things. Evolution is the well established fact that plants and animals change over time. The Theory of evolution -- which is also a fact, according to your own link -- is the explanation of the mechanisms by which these changes happen.

A scientific theory is not conjecture. A scientific theory is not an incomplete fact.
 
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