God gives you freedom, and then forces you to do as He Commands.--?? Incompatible.

[Greatest I am]

They bring their misery on themself.

5 ...it is by the wicked that the wicked are punished; ...
(Book of Mormon | Mormon4:5)

I am an unrepentant sinner.
I have brought no misery to myself. fact is I am rather proud of my sins.
Do you feel misery for yours. I cannot be the only exception to your rule. What make you think this rule is true?

Regards
DL

 

[idea]

What is our price?

Regards
DL

19 They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them...
(Old Testament | Ezekiel 7:19)

20 For ye are bought with a price...
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 6:20)

6 ...it is the price of blood.
(New Testament | Matthew 27:6)

28 ...With a great sum obtained I this freedom.
(New Testament | Acts 22:28)

 

[idea]

I am an unrepentant sinner.
I have brought no misery to myself. fact is I am rather proud of my sins.
Do you feel misery for yours. I cannot be the only exception to your rule. What make you think this rule is true?

Regards
DL

your life is not over yet.

The saddest words Of tongue or pen Are these four words It might have been

one day you will understand enough to regret.

 

[Katzpur]

What does yours do with sinners?

It depends on the circumstances. Some have never been taught what God expects of them. God doesn't punish people without first making sure they understand the rules. Those who willfully and knowingly disobey will be given the opportunity to accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. If they do, He will pay the price for their sins. If they don't, they will be made to atone for their own sins. Basically, this means experiencing the feelings we all have experienced when we know we've done something wrong. (I'm assuming you have felt guilt and remorse at some point in your life.) After a period of time, they will be permitted to receive a portion of God's glory. They will be allowed into Heaven, but will not receive the same reward as someone who was obedient and repentant.

 

[kai]

God gives you freedom, and then forces you to do as He Commands.--?? Incompatible.

When man was given freedom and free choice, he rejoiced. Then God gave His commandments with the threat of punishment if His commandments and laws are not followed. These two concepts are incompatible. God gives up His -right- to command and then threatens those who do not follow His commands.

Debate-
Which is it? Are we free or are we slaves?

Regards
DL

neither, we just are! and the free will thing thats just an excuse for all the genocidal acts carried out by man, or children dying of starvation, when someone cries out "how could god allow this"

"free will " they answer.


It just doesnt stack up.

 

[Katzpur]

I am an unrepentant sinner. I have brought no misery to myself. fact is I am rather proud of my sins.

Hmmm. I guess I can't relate to that. I've never known anyone who is proud of his sins. Do you love anyone -- besides yourself, that is? Have you never, ever hurt someone you love? Why would you be proud of this? (By the way, I'm not going to argue with you. If you are sincerely proud of your sins, we really have no common ground from which to continue this conversation.)

 

[Greatest I am]

19 They shall cast their silver in the streets, and their gold shall be removed: their silver and their gold shall not be able to deliver them...
(Old Testament | Ezekiel7:19)

20 For ye are bought with a price...
(New Testament | 1 Corinthians6:20)

6 ...it is the price of blood.
(New Testament | Matthew27:6)

28 ...With a great sum obtained I this freedom.
(New Testament | Acts22:28)

It did not cost Adam and Eve that much. It cost me even less.

Regards DL

 

[Greatest I am]

your life is not over yet.

The saddest words Of tongue or pen Are these four words It might have been

one day you will understand enough to regret.

Having spoken to God the one time for a few seconds tells me that my life is a perfect one. I know my mind and will not give myself misery. All other conditions cannot touch me.

Regards
DL

 

[madcap]

We agree.

Why not?

Regards
DL

Well, I should clarify...I think there MIGHT be some sort of celestial punishment, but I don't think it's possible to sin yourself out of salvation. I do not think that God is sitting there at the Pearly Gates when you die with a list of all the sins you committed in life, deciding whether you go to heaven or hell. But I do think that when we don't follow our consciences and instead do what we feel is wrong -- or don't do what we feel is right -- then we pay a price. Call it a spiritual wound. Maybe it's the punishment of a personal God, maybe it's the inertia of an impersonal force. I don't know.

It's something I need to think more about.

 

[Greatest I am]

It depends on the circumstances. Some have never been taught what God expects of them. God doesn't punish people without first making sure they understand the rules. Those who willfully and knowingly disobey will be given the opportunity to accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. If they do, He will pay the price for their sins. If they don't, they will be made to atone for their own sins. Basically, this means experiencing the feelings we all have experienced when we know we've done something wrong. (I'm assuming you have felt guilt and remorse at some point in your life.) After a period of time, they will be permitted to receive a portion of God's glory. They will be allowed into Heaven, but will not receive the same reward as someone who was obedient and repentant.

How little you understand.

Why would you advise me to follow a genocidal maniac that even Satan would condemn to hell if there was one?

Would you have stayed His hand at the time of the flood?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

neither, we just are! and the free will thing thats just an excuse for all the genocidal acts carried out by man, or children dying of starvation, when someone cries out "how could god allow this"

"free will " they answer.


It just doesnt stack up.

And the genocide that God did?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Hmmm. I guess I can't relate to that. I've never known anyone who is proud of his sins. Do you love anyone -- besides yourself, that is? Have you never, ever hurt someone you love? Why would you be proud of this? (By the way, I'm not going to argue with you. If you are sincerely proud of your sins, we really have no common ground from which to continue this conversation.)

Eve's so called sin gave us moral sense. Would you want her to repent?
Would you stop her from reaching for the tree of knowledge?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

Well, I should clarify...I think there MIGHT be some sort of celestial punishment, but I don't think it's possible to sin yourself out of salvation. I do not think that God is sitting there at the Pearly Gates when you die with a list of all the sins you committed in life, deciding whether you go to heaven or hell. But I do think that when we don't follow our consciences and instead do what we feel is wrong -- or don't do what we feel is right -- then we pay a price. Call it a spiritual wound. Maybe it's the punishment of a personal God, maybe it's the inertia of an impersonal force. I don't know.

It's something I need to think more about.

Let me know once you decide.
You are right about God not having a list but why not.

Regards
DL

 

[madcap]

Let me know once you decide.

I'll get back to you in thirty or forty years. If I've made a decision by then.

 

[Heneni]

I am an unrepentant sinner.
I have brought no misery to myself. fact is I am rather proud of my sins.
Regards
DL

Wowsee....here we have a texbook classic of a spirit at work. This one isnt even hard to figure out...its becoming more and more arrogant, and hence is loosing more and more of its disguise. 'It' is a spirit of division.

It did not cost Adam and Eve that much. It cost me even less.

Regards DL

The cost of ignorance here, is still to be determined, but im not holding out for a good return on investment.

Having spoken to God the one time for a few seconds tells me that my life is a perfect one. I know my mind and will not give myself misery. All other conditions cannot touch me.

Regards
DL

You spoke to god ONCE for a few seconds. Can i just say, that your particular master is rather cruel. You have in fact obtained some status in your kingdom. Your a willing participant in dividing whatever you can find to divide. The only thing worse than being a slave of satan, is being his right hand.

How little you understand.

Why would you advise me to follow a genocidal maniac that even Satan would condemn to hell if there was one?

Would you have stayed His hand at the time of the flood?

Regards
DL

Ahhh....classic. We not only take offense at god, but we propogate it as well. Its not that you believe the bible...but you will use it as a weapon. Thats called deception. A rather nasty trait, but one that is commonly found in unclean spirits. First, we make god look like a monster, then we proceed to sow distrust in him, then when the feeble have their armour pierced you go in for the kill. No wonder the love of many will grow cold in the last days. Love grows cold, when a spirit is dead.

Eve's so called sin gave us moral sense. Would you want her to repent?
Would you stop her from reaching for the tree of knowledge?

Regards
DL

Im afraid you have already reached for a tree of knowledge. Nevermind eve. Your teacher is feeding you with rotten fruit.

I know you wont mind me stirring here a little. You dont mind controversy. You dont mind giving your 'verdict' of others sprituality, so im sure you wont mind me giving you my analyses either.

There is no rest for the wicked. You are terribly hard at work. Arent you feeling a tad tired yet?

 

[cardero]

You misunderstand free will. When God gives us free will, he does not give up the need to give us commandments, nor the need to impose consequences. Here's a simple example. I have the free will to jump out the window of the hotel I'm staying in tonight. I can jump or I can not jump. I am not free, however, to decide on what will happen to me when I hit the ground, should I decide to jump. If I jump, I will be subject to the law of gravity and other cause and effect. Does this imply I have no free will to jump or not to jump? No, it does not.

What you are describing ScottC is natural law and whether it was implemented by GOD or not it is evident that it does not judge, condemn or punish (not like the OP is insisting). There is the possibility that you may not survive the fall but it is certainly your free will to jump. It may also depend on what you believe in the afterlife. If you believe that GOD will punish you in the afterlife for killing yourself then you do not have the free will to end your life and most likely will fear the consequences of doing so which sort of takes away your choice and prevents you from killing yourself. We can liken this to a slave who is fearful of running away from his master who may kill them for running away. Do you happen to have another example?

 

[cardero]

Katzpur writes: It depends on the circumstances. Some have never been taught what God expects of them.

I would think that GOD’s unconditional love would come without expectation or condition.

 

[kai]

And the genocide that God did?

Regards
DL

anything God did is "alleged"

 

[Scott C.]

Is it justice that a small sinner like you and I can only sin for 120 yrs and then spend 12000000000000000000000yrs in hell with the likes of Hitler?

Does not look fair to me.

Regards
DL

As a Latter-day Saint, that's not what I believe happens.

 

[Scott C.]

What you are describing ScottC is natural law and whether it was implemented by GOD or not it is evident that it does not judge, condemn or punish (not like the OP is insisting). There is the possibility that you may not survive the fall but it is certainly your free will to jump. It may also depend on what you believe in the afterlife. If you believe that GOD will punish you in the afterlife for killing yourself then you do not have the free will to end your life and most likely will fear the consequences of doing so which sort of takes away your choice and prevents you from killing yourself. We can liken this to a slave who is fearful of running away from his master who may kill them for running away. Do you happen to have another example?

The God I worship loves me. I trust him will all of my heart. I gladly try to follow his commandments and know I'm better off doing so. I welcome his council and direction for my life. I know he forgives me when I make mistakes.