God has to prove to me that He exists: what kind of proof should I demand?

[blü 2]

I see. I must be that fallible human being not capable of the absolute Truth, nor of the absolute knowledge of God's existence. But I refuse to believe anyone else of the same unless He or She can give me the concrete proof of God's existence excepting a referral to read the scriptures. If no human being alive can produce that evidence it must be God's responsibility to provide the proof. He must find some way to answer my demand if He is God.

It seems to me that the evidence that the only place God is found is in the imagination of individuals is extremely strong.

For a start, there is no definition of 'God' appropriate for a real being, one with objective existence; all the definitions depend on imaginary attributes. Nor is there any concept of 'godness' which a real god would have and a false candidate would not eg that would distinguish God from a superscientist.

 

[Thief]

My search for the truth about Existence has come to this question?

Any ideas?

a tap on the shoulder?
a slap up side your head?

how about? you wake up speaking a foreign language and your family doesn't

how about?.....one cubit more in height
how about?....half of your hair turns white and the other half black …..right down the middle
(or maybe skunk tail pattern)

you jump from a high ledge....and you get your wings

you get to eat rocks as if they were dinner rolls

you can't swim any more.....you have to walk on water
the water won't let you dive in

 

[osgart]

With the experience of God comes the question of 'Am i devising this God by unconsciously, or consciously attributing the experience to there being a God'?

It may be nothing more then conjuring it up all on your own! An imagined fantasy world triggered by an experience! What then?

I have imagined many fantastical things of which i have little to go on in the way of proof or evidence. In it all i wouldnt want the mistake of being totally convinced of false attributions to my experiences. False hope is a letdown!

Irrefutability, infallibility, what in reality is like that? There is an independent reality out there, full of people independent of me and my experiences, and my interpretation and reasoning of those experiences are the only means i have of negotiating that reality.

The reliable objective tests for what is and what aint so. Those are the things to pursue, imo.

Plus taking in an experience and just letting it all play out, and not making more of it then can be grasped, and then maybe being aware of the grasping. I find that exercise useful. Hypotheticals come to mind, possibilities, or just nothing more then the certain is of an experience.

My question is how many people invent God in their minds without realizing it?

 

[Shantanu]

I didn't say we did.

However, it's clear that humans survive best in tribes, and not as loners out on the veldt like eg lions.

And the evidence for this is voluminous and strong, centering around cooperative action. In nearly all primate societies, including ours, position in society depends on one-to-one relationships within the group; and the larger the primate brain, the more such relationships are possible. This results in humans having many more such relationships each than any other primate species. If you improve your position in the society, this increases your own chances of survival by giving better access to resources and to breeding partners.

So you are arguing that the human species is better of with countless religions no matter how true they are because these increase the chances of the species surviving through multiplication, am I right?

 

[Shantanu]

My question is how many people invent God in their minds without realizing it?

It is purely and simply mental affliction: that is just how the human mind assesses information and generates information for the mind to then stabilise onto a course of action needed for survival. A God has nothing to do with it.

 

[Thief]

It is purely and simply mental affliction: that is just how the human mind assesses information and generates information for the mind to then stabilise onto a course of action needed for survival. A God has nothing to do with it.

well now.....

does it not seem?.....somethings are greater than you are

the first time primitive man sees a lightning strike....he would be overwhelmed
likewise.....tornadoes, earthquakes, thunderclaps, insect plagues,
etc etc etc

and the helpless situations are afflictions
so in response Man would raise his voice and make pronouncement
as if his speech might have an influence

and should the affliction ease after such effort....
it becomes a prayer answered

but of course we now have science
and the planet is not the mystery that it used to be

but then again.....here WE are

 

[Shantanu]

well now.....

does it not seem?.....somethings are greater than you are

the first time primitive man sees a lightning strike....he would be overwhelmed
likewise.....tornadoes, earthquakes, thunderclaps, insect plagues,
etc etc etc

and the helpless situations are afflictions
so in response Man would raise his voice and make pronouncement
as if his speech might have an influence

and should the affliction ease after such effort....
it becomes a prayer answered

but of course we now have science
and the planet is not the mystery that it used to be

but then again.....here WE are

There is nothing greater than truth that one can rely upon. There are ways of probing that ascertain the truth of the Nature of the universe like a true scientist who would experiment with reality. Once that reality is clear, one can move on and live free of mysterious happenings.

 

[Thief]

There is nothing greater than truth that one can rely upon. There are ways of probing that ascertain the truth of the Nature of the universe like a true scientist who would experiment with reality. Once that reality is clear, one can move on and live free of mysterious happenings.

mysterious happenings?

like your dreams?

 

[Shantanu]

mysterious happenings?

like your dreams?

Dreams, visions, hallucinations, utterrances that might suggest a spiritual awakening is in progress: all turn our to be how the mind conjures up realities and the body then does the rest to continue the process of delusional living that destroys the person: those are the symptoms of mental disorder brought on by genetics.

 

[Thief]

Dreams, visions, hallucinations, utterrances that might suggest a spiritual awakening is in progress: all turn our to be how the mind conjures up realities and the body then does the rest to continue the process of delusional living that destroys the person: those are the symptoms of mental disorder brought on by genetics.

so.....we are doomed......DOOMED

 

[Shantanu]

so.....we are doomed......DOOMED

Nothing that appropriate psychological counselling cannot prevent: the truth.

 

[Thief]

Nothing that appropriate psychological counselling cannot prevent: the truth.

well....maybe I'm different
I don't feel the need for a shrink

or maybe my line of thought has sufficient logic
(I think it does)
I only worry the next step up

that would be the language, the territory and the scheme of things
in a dreamscape called.....heaven

 

[Shantanu]

well....maybe I'm different
I don't feel the need for a shrink

or maybe my line of thought has sufficient logic
(I think it does)
I only worry the next step up

that would be the language, the territory and the scheme of things
in a dreamscape called.....heaven

I try and simplify things to the bare nuts and bolts that are needed to hold me together as I move forwards towards that dreamscape: within this life time.

 

[Thief]

I try and simplify things to the bare nuts and bolts that are needed to hold me together as I move forwards towards that dreamscape: within this life time.

as a toolmaker......I gotta do more than nuts and bolts

my life is sooooooo complicated

 

[Shantanu]

as a toolmaker......I gotta do more than nuts and bolts

my life is sooooooo complicated

Anything that does not float the boat gets jettisoned: that's me.

 

[blü 2]

So you are arguing that the human species is better of with countless religions no matter how true they are because these increase the chances of the species surviving through multiplication, am I right?

Depends what you mean by better off, considering that at present rates there'll be an extra two billion of us in 30 years' time.

But that aside, yes, the argument is that religion is so common not because it's true but because it promotes tribal solidarity and cooperation, and thus aids survival and breeding.

And certainly I'm not saying religion is true. There are some odd things about it generically, though, which may suggest our brains tend towards it. One example is the absence of any definition of 'god' appropriate for a real god ─ that is, of a being not imaginary, but having objective existence, one found in nature, the world external to the self. This points to gods only existing as concepts, things imagined, in individual brains, for instance. And that would explain why the world behaves exactly as if that were indeed the only way God, or gods, existed; and why no religion is more true than any other on supernatural matters; and why God neither says nor does, but speaks and acts only through human followers; and so on.

 

[Shantanu]

Depends what you mean by better off, considering that at present rates there'll be an extra two billion of us in 30 years' time.

But that aside, yes, the argument is that religion is so common not because it's true but because it promotes tribal solidarity and cooperation, and thus aids survival and breeding.

And certainly I'm not saying religion is true. There are some odd things about it generically, though, which may suggest our brains tend towards it. One example is the absence of any definition of 'god' appropriate for a real god ─ that is, of a being not imaginary, but having objective existence, one found in nature, the world external to the self. This points to gods only existing as concepts, things imagined, in individual brains, for instance. And that would explain why the world behaves exactly as if that were indeed the only way God, or gods, existed; and why no religion is more true than any other on supernatural matters; and why God neither says nor does, but speaks and acts only through human followers; and so on.

If atheism is a religiously followed concept, would that also not generate the benefits that you speak of in terms of the survival of the human species through tribal solidarity and cooperation?

 

[blü 2]

If atheism is a religiously followed concept, would that also not generate the benefits that you speak of in terms of the survival of the human species through tribal solidarity and cooperation?

That's a good question, so let me guess at an answer.

It seems to me that one basis of modern atheism is debate by and between educated skeptics; and most of the bases of modern theism also assume some degree of education.

If that kind of debate exists among nomads, or territorial tribesmen, I'd be very surprised. Traditional cultures have stories to explain eg natural phenomena, just so stories to explain the stars, the species, the mountain that looks like a mouse with big ears, and so on.

So when stories are your culture, gods may be your cultural explanation.

Another point also occurs to me. When I drove a taxi in my student days, I found myself spontaneously murmuring, on some notable piece of good luck, 'Thanks TG', where TG, also spontaneously, stood for 'taxi god'. This ties in perfectly with the line attributed to Dante Gabriel Rossetti, 'The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has nobody to thank.' I would have said I was agnostic in those days, but the point is the same. It would seem we have evolved responses to luck, as well, regarding as as caused, or sent, rather than a matter of statistics.

 

[Shantanu]

That's a good question, so let me guess at an answer.

It seems to me that one basis of modern atheism is debate by and between educated skeptics; and most of the bases of modern theism also assume some degree of education.

If that kind of debate exists among nomads, or territorial tribesmen, I'd be very surprised. Traditional cultures have stories to explain eg natural phenomena, just so stories to explain the stars, the species, the mountain that looks like a mouse with big ears, and so on.

So when stories are your culture, gods may be your cultural explanation.

Another point also occurs to me. When I drove a taxi in my student days, I found myself spontaneously murmuring, on some notable piece of good luck, 'Thanks TG', where TG, also spontaneously, stood for 'taxi god'. This ties in perfectly with the line attributed to Dante Gabriel Rossetti, 'The worst moment for the atheist is when he is really thankful and has nobody to thank.' I would have said I was agnostic in those days, but the point is the same. It would seem we have evolved responses to luck, as well, regarding as as caused, or sent, rather than a matter of statistics.

Your explanation indicates that we humans may be genetically programmed to have evolved such cultural practices as god stories in traditional cultures and responses to luck as if they serve a survival function. Is that your impression?

 

[blü 2]

Your explanation indicates that we humans may be genetically programmed to have evolved such cultural practices as god stories in traditional cultures and responses to luck as if they serve a survival function. Is that your impression?

Yes, I think those ideas are worth consideration.