God-Inspired Scripture

[arthra]

arthra, I'd like to know what the biblical passages are that connect Muhammad to the Bible. The books of the Bible, Genesis to Revelation, took approximately 1500 years to complete, with maybe 40 different prophets involved. The Qur'an, in contrast, took 23 years to complete, and is the work of one man. If the Qur'an cannot be connected to the Bible, it stands alone without legitimacy.

I would also like to know what qualifies as true prophecy, according to Islam. In a recent book I was reading about Islam, written by a Muslim, he made the statement that all prophets are accepted as messengers of God. Not once did he raise the possibility that a prophet might be false. The quote you added above sounds similar - it aims to broaden the focus from a few legitimate prophets to ALL prophets without distinction.

Redemptionsong..

Maybe you could start a thread on prophecy somewhere... I take it you likely have some ideas as to which passages you would regard as prophetic.... perhaps on a thread that could be under comparative religion.

I do not agree with you that the Qur'an is merely the "work of one man" or that it has no "legitimacy". For me it has inspiration and guidance. Actually there are verses that imply that there can be those who distort scriptures:

Consider this verse translated by Rodwell:

."Woe to those who with their own hands transcribe the Book corruptly, and then say, "This is from God," that
they may sell it for some mean price! Woe then to them for that which their
hands have written! and, Woe to them for the gains which they have made!"

(The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 2 - The Cow)

There was also a "prophet" at the time of Prophet Muhammad who claimed to have received revealed verse called Musaylimah:

Musaylimah, who is reported as having been a skilled magician,[5] dazzled the crowd with miracles. He could put an egg in a bottle; he could cut off the feathers of a bird and then stick them on so the bird would fly again; and he used this skill to persuade the people that he was divinely gifted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musaylimah

Maybe he was parallel to Simon the Magician mentioned in Acts?

 

[Jabar]

Ingledsva, this is part of the post that you provided.

There can be no doubt that both passages are referring to a future Messiah ('a King') who will be 'a rod of the stem of Jesse' and a righteous Branch from the line of David. This same Messiah will execute judgment and bring justice to the earth.
The Jewish speaker on the video says so, you agree with him, and I agree with both of you. Great.
So you also agree that the spirit of the LORD shall [future tense] 'rest upon him'. This is the word of Isaiah the prophet in chapter 11. The spirit of the Lord will rest on the Messiah.

Now look at Isaiah 61:1,2 again. This is all part of the vision that Isaiah was given. It starts with the words, 'The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me'. This CANNOT mean 'upon Isaiah'. It must mean 'upon the Messiah'.
Now you might not think that Jesus makes a legitimate claim to being the Messiah, but at least we have established that the Messiah must be the one to speak these words.

The Bible contains many contradictions and is corrupted.

The Qur'an is divine and contains no errors.

Jesus never claimed divinity...

In fact he was a prophet of God.

 

[atanu]

No. I believe in the whole Bible, Old Testament and New Testament, Genesis to Revelation, to be the Word of God. I believe the whole Bible to be a revelation of Jesus Christ.

No. You actually imply that without NT, the OT Is not complete. And all know of your opinion of other scripture.

You say you accept any scripture, but as I pointed out earlier Jesus Christ is a 'stumblingstone' to many because his position is uncompromising. He says,'I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me'. This is not the broad path- it's the narrow path.

Wrong for many reasons:

1. As if before advent of Jesus, people had no way of salvation.
2. The LORD is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made. Only a true surrender is needed to realise that all paths are paved by Lord and leader of all paths is Him.
3. One who knows the way, knows it as unlimited and wide -- not narrow like human egos.
.............

I am pretty sure that you know nothing as to where you can get in touch with Jesus Christ and enter the WAY. If you know then please tell me where you found Jesus.

 

[atanu]

The Bible contains many contradictions and is corrupted.

The Qur'an is divine and contains no errors.

Jesus never claimed divinity...

In fact he was a prophet of God.

Wow.

Redemption song in a mirror.

 

[Jabar]

Wow.

Redemption song in a mirror.

Haha.




How you doing brother?

 

[Redemptionsong]

Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD (YHVH), that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Zec 3:8Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Zec 6:10 Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah;

Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;

Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

Yes, Ingledsva, they are ALL prophecies to the coming Messiah. If you look carefully at the wording, you will see that 'the Branch' is prefixed by a significant role played by the Messiah. He will be a righteous descendant of David, (Jeremiah). He will be a servant of God (Zechariah). He will be the Son of Man (Zechariah). Add to this Isaiah 4:2, and you have 'the branch of the Lord'. That gives us a tidy little summary of the perspectives given by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

But I think you're side-stepping the point. Isaiah cannot be the person that the words of Chapter 61:1,2 are being spoken by. He heard these words spoken in his vision and he repeated them, but Isaiah 11:1,2 tells us that only the Messiah can speak these words!

What is difficult to discern from Isaiah 61 is the distinction between the Jubilee (first advent) and vengeance (second advent). A period of unspecified length is hidden in a comma.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Wow.

Redemption song in a mirror.

Well, this is just what we want, then! A chance to compare and contrast.

I believe that the Word of God, as found in the Bible, is a rock and sure foundation. So maybe Jabar would like to point out the contradictions and corruptions. He might also like to show me where Muhammad appears in the Bible, as this is a necessary requirement if Muhammad is to be accepted as 'the seal of the prophets'.

Jabar might also like to look back at the discussions with arthra.

 

[atanu]

GoOdd idea.

(And thus he escapes the onus of explaining where one can find Jesus and unite with His way).

 

[Jabar]

Well, this is just what we want, then! A chance to compare and contrast.

I believe that the Word of God, as found in the Bible, is a rock and sure foundation. So maybe Jabar would like to point out the contradictions and corruptions. He might also like to show me where Muhammad appears in the Bible, as this is a necessary requirement if Muhammad is to be accepted as 'the seal of the prophets'.

Jabar might also like to look back at the discussions with arthra.

Clarify this contradiction:
It is mentioned in the 2nd Kings, Ch. No 24, Verse No 8, that…‘Jehoiachin was 18 years old, when he began to reign Jerusalem, and he reigned for 3 months and 10 days. 2nd Chronicles, Ch. No 36, Verse No 9, says that…‘Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he began to reign and he reigned for 3 months, 10 days. Was Jehoiachin 18 years when he began to reign, or was he 8 years old?

Muhammad in the Bible:



It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."

When Archangel Gabrail commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying Iqra - "Read", he replied, "I am not learned".

 

[Redemptionsong]

Clarify this contradiction:
It is mentioned in the 2nd Kings, Ch. No 24, Verse No 8, that…‘Jehoiachin was 18 years old, when he began to reign Jerusalem, and he reigned for 3 months and 10 days. 2nd Chronicles, Ch. No 36, Verse No 9, says that…‘Jehoiachin was 8 years old when he began to reign and he reigned for 3 months, 10 days. Was Jehoiachin 18 years when he began to reign, or was he 8 years old?

The so-called contradiction that you raise, as between 2 Kings 24:8 and 2 Chronicles 36:9, is explained by the fact that the eighteen years includes Coniah's (Jehoiachin's) co-regency, whilst the eight years was his reigning alone. 'This practice was common in Israel and Judah as well as ancient contemporary kingdoms.' (See Bullinger,'The Companion Bible')

 

[Jabar]

The so-called contradiction that you raise, as between 2 Kings 24:8 and 2 Chronicles 36:9, is explained by the fact that the eighteen years includes Coniah's (Jehoiachin's) co-regency, whilst the eight years was his reigning alone. 'This practice was common in Israel and Judah as well as ancient contemporary kingdoms.' (See Bullinger,'The Companion Bible')

How so? It blatantly portrays something else. And i just showed you how Muhammad is portrayed in the Bible.

 

[Ingledsva]

Yes, Ingledsva, they are ALL prophecies to the coming Messiah. If you look carefully at the wording, you will see that 'the Branch' is prefixed by a significant role played by the Messiah. He will be a righteous descendant of David, (Jeremiah). He will be a servant of God (Zechariah). He will be the Son of Man (Zechariah). Add to this Isaiah 4:2, and you have 'the branch of the Lord'. That gives us a tidy little summary of the perspectives given by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

But I think you're side-stepping the point. Isaiah cannot be the person that the words of Chapter 61:1,2 are being spoken by. He heard these words spoken in his vision and he repeated them, but Isaiah 11:1,2 tells us that only the Messiah can speak these words!

What is difficult to discern from Isaiah 61 is the distinction between the Jubilee (first advent) and vengeance (second advent). A period of unspecified length is hidden in a comma.

No Isaiah 11:1,2 does NOT tell us only Messiah can speak these words.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of YHVH shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of YHVH;

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61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me (Isaiah) because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; 61:3To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of YHVH, that he might be glorified.

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Isaiah 1 and 2 make it plain that Isaiah is appointed to speak the words of YHVH.

Isa 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Isa 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for YHVH hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

Isa 1:7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

Isa 1:8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

Isa 1:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

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[Ingledsva]

Yes, Ingledsva, they are ALL prophecies to the coming Messiah. If you look carefully at the wording, you will see that 'the Branch' is prefixed by a significant role played by the Messiah. ....

How conveniently you ignore what I posted, and change Joshua the son of Zephaniah, - into Jesus.

Zec 6:10 Take of them of the captivity, even of Heldai, of Tobijah, and of Jedaiah, which are come from Babylon, and come thou the same day, and go into the house of Josiah the son of Zephaniah;

Zec 6:11 Then take silver and gold, and make crowns, and set them upon the head of Joshua the son of Josedech, the high priest;

Zec 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:

Zec 6:13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

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[Redemptionsong]

How so? It blatantly portrays something else. And i just showed you how Muhammad is portrayed in the Bible.

I've provided a clear explanation of the apparent inconsistency between two passages relating to Jehoiachin's reign.

So let's now look at the Isaiah passage and see whether or not it really is a prophecy about Muhammad.
The first thing to ask is, Why does this passage attract attention? The answer must be that it sounds, superficially, like the record of Muhammad in the cave at Hira. Gabriel is said to have called upon Muhammad to recite, despite the fact that Muhammad was illiterate. So let's see if the words of Isaiah really are about this event.

Isaiah's vision, we are told in Isaiah 1:1 is 'concerning Judah and Jerusalem'. This should immediately ring alarm bells for anyone investigating a possible prophecy of Muhammad. Did Muhammad have anything to do with the history of Judah or Jerusalem back around 700 BCE?

Now read the Isaiah text in question. Isaiah 29:12, in context. Chapter 29 begins with 8 verses about a seige of Jerusalem. People want to know what is going to happen but there's a 'spirit of deep sleep' which causes even the most learned to be blind. Verse 10 says, 'the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.' This continues in verse 11, 'And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying Read this, I pray thee: and he saith; I am not learned.'
This tells us that the scriptures containing the vision (about the future of the city of God) cannot be read or understood by the learned or the unlearned. Why not? We are told in verse 24; 'They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.' In other words, it is not until the coming of the Messiah that 'the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness' (verse 18).

 

[Redemptionsong]

No Isaiah 11:1,2 does NOT tell us only Messiah can speak these words.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of YHVH shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of YHVH;

It must be the Messiah. Look again.

Isaiah was called as a prophet. The message that he delivered to the people of Judah and Jerusalem was based on a vision of the future and was mostly bad news! The people of Jerusalem were about to be surrounded by an Assyrian army, and later by a Babylonian army that would destroy their city and carry away the people into exile. Isaiah delivers a vision of all that is to happen in the immediate future, and in the longer term. This longer term picture covers the messianic age.

Isaiah cannot claim for himself that role of preaching 'good tidings'! Most of his message was bad news. Would he 'bind up the broken-hearted'? Hardly! He brought anxiety to people who saw their enemies approaching the city. Would he give 'oil of joy for mourning'? Hardly. Does Isaiah give 'the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness'? Hardly.

Isaiah is pointing to the Messiah, in the manner of all true prophets.

 

[Jabar]

I've provided a clear explanation of the apparent inconsistency between two passages relating to Jehoiachin's reign.

So let's now look at the Isaiah passage and see whether or not it really is a prophecy about Muhammad.
The first thing to ask is, Why does this passage attract attention? The answer must be that it sounds, superficially, like the record of Muhammad in the cave at Hira. Gabriel is said to have called upon Muhammad to recite, despite the fact that Muhammad was illiterate. So let's see if the words of Isaiah really are about this event.

Isaiah's vision, we are told in Isaiah 1:1 is 'concerning Judah and Jerusalem'. This should immediately ring alarm bells for anyone investigating a possible prophecy of Muhammad. Did Muhammad have anything to do with the history of Judah or Jerusalem back around 700 BCE?

Now read the Isaiah text in question. Isaiah 29:12, in context. Chapter 29 begins with 8 verses about a seige of Jerusalem. People want to know what is going to happen but there's a 'spirit of deep sleep' which causes even the most learned to be blind. Verse 10 says, 'the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.' This continues in verse 11, 'And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying Read this, I pray thee: and he saith; I am not learned.'
This tells us that the scriptures containing the vision (about the future of the city of God) cannot be read or understood by the learned or the unlearned. Why not? We are told in verse 24; 'They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.' In other words, it is not until the coming of the Messiah that 'the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness' (verse 18).

You just twisted the word of your scripture.

 

[Redemptionsong]

You just twisted the word of your scripture.

Not at all. One book records the reign form Jehoiachin's co-regency, which is a legitimate rule, and the other records the reign from his sole rule, when he was 18. This isn't twisting scripture; this is showing you just how accurate the Word of God really is. It's something that is not found in the words of the Qur'an.

Given that it took 1500 years to write the Bible, you'd expect there would be hundreds of errors and corruptions. How could they possible maintain consistency and cohesion? Well, there's only one answer. It's the Word of God, and God protects it from his enemies.

In the Qur'an, by way of contrast, there is confusion between the identities of Ishmael and Isaac. Which son was blessed by God as the true heir to the promise? Are we to follow the descendants of Ishmael or Isaac?
And in the New Testament, are we to believe that Jesus was not killed? Was someone else crucified in his place? Did he ascend to heaven and avoid death? What does the Qur'an truly reveal?

 

[Jabar]

Not at all. One book records the reign form Jehoiachin's co-regency, which is a legitimate rule, and the other records the reign from his sole rule, when he was 18. This isn't twisting scripture; this is showing you just how accurate the Word of God really is. It's something that is not found in the words of the Qur'an.

Given that it took 1500 years to write the Bible, you'd expect there would be hundreds of errors and corruptions. How could they possible maintain consistency and cohesion? Well, there's only one answer. It's the Word of God, and God protects it from his enemies.

In the Qur'an, by way of contrast, there is confusion between the identities of Ishmael and Isaac. Which son was blessed by God as the true heir to the promise? Are we to follow the descendants of Ishmael or Isaac?
And in the New Testament, are we to believe that Jesus was not killed? Was someone else crucified in his place? Did he ascend to heaven and avoid death? What does the Qur'an truly reveal?

The Bible is pretty corrupted to me.

Jesus was never crucified. He was ascended to heaven. Both in Old Testament and Qur'an.


Check this out:

http://www.knowledgeoftoday.org/201...-christ-was-not-crucified-vatican-in-awe.html


This is true.

 

[Jabar]

The Bible is pretty corrupted to me. Well not the Bible, but the churches.

Jesus was never crucified. He was ascended to heaven. Both in Old Testament and Qur'an.


Check this out:

http://www.knowledgeoftoday.org/201...-christ-was-not-crucified-vatican-in-awe.html

And:
http://www.discoveringislam.org/bible_scientific_errors.htm

This is true.

 

[Ingledsva]

It must be the Messiah. Look again.

Isaiah was called as a prophet. The message that he delivered to the people of Judah and Jerusalem was based on a vision of the future and was mostly bad news! The people of Jerusalem were about to be surrounded by an Assyrian army, and later by a Babylonian army that would destroy their city and carry away the people into exile. Isaiah delivers a vision of all that is to happen in the immediate future, and in the longer term. This longer term picture covers the messianic age.

Isaiah cannot claim for himself that role of preaching 'good tidings'! Most of his message was bad news. Would he 'bind up the broken-hearted'? Hardly! He brought anxiety to people who saw their enemies approaching the city. Would he give 'oil of joy for mourning'? Hardly. Does Isaiah give 'the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness'? Hardly.

Isaiah is pointing to the Messiah, in the manner of all true prophets.

Baloney. He is prophesizing that things are eventually going to be OK because YHVH is with them.

The idea that he can't say the words in Isaiah 11:1, 2 is ridiculous.

I purposely showed you where he speaks for YHVH, - using "I." Obviously he can say those words in Isa 11: 1 and 2.

Isaiah 1 and 2 make it plain that Isaiah is appointed to speak the words of YHVH.

Isa 1:1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

Isa 1:2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for YHVH hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.

Isa 1:7 Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers.

Isa 1:8 And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city.

Isa 1:26 And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of YHVH shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of YHVH;

61:1 The Spirit of Adonay YHVH is upon me (Isaiah) because YHVH hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of YHVH, that he might be glorified.

And what are those good tidings ISAIAH spoke?

They are Isa 11:1, 2 - and everywhere else he tells them they will win and ZION will be recovered.

We are talking the same war in Isaiah 1 - and in Isaiah 61.

Also, - you seriously don't think the Spirit of YHVH was on every prophet and special person spoken of in the Bible?

1Sa 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of YHVH came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

1Sa 16:14 But the Spirit of YHVH departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from YHVH troubled him.

Saul obviously also had it, but I found it interesting that the evil spirit is from YHVH.


Exo 31:2 See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:

Exo 31:3 And I have filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

Num 27:18 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take thee Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay thine hand upon him;

Mic 3:8 But truly I (Micah the Morasthite) am full of power by the Spirit of YHVH, and of judgment, and of might, to declare unto Jacob his transgression, and to Israel his sin.

2Ch 15:1 And the Spirit of YHVH came upon Azariah the son of Oded;

Numbers 24:2 And Balaam lifted up his eyes and saw Israel camping tribe by tribe; and the Spirit of God came upon him.

61:1 The Spirit of Adonay YHVH is upon me (Isaiah) because YHVH hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

You get the idea.

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