God is a person

[Man of Faith]

Just thinking (and to pull this discussion a bit back toward the OP)...

Man of Faith, you said that God is a person in that he wills, thinks, feels, etc. In the case of a mortal person, these things create culpability: if we foresee the consequences of an action and deliberately (i.e. as an act of will) cause that action to occur, then we are culpable for the foreseen result. However, it seems like you're arguing that God isn't culpable in this way.

Doesn't this create a contradiction? If God really is a person, then doesn't this mean that God is culpable like a person would be?

I would say God has culpability in the sense that he is responsible for his actions and words. I don’t remember saying that God isn’t responsible for his actions, but that his actions are just.

 

[PolyHedral]

He wiped out all life on Earth at one point. How is that just?

 

[Autodidact]

I would say God has culpability in the sense that he is responsible for his actions and words. I don’t remember saying that God isn’t responsible for his actions, but that his actions are just.

Do you consider killing babies because their parents won't worship you just?

 

[Autodidact]

MoF: You didn't answer my question. Are you saying that if God exists, He is a person, or are you saying that because God is a person, He exists?

 

[Man of Faith]

Isn't it cute how religion can be used to excuse unlimited evil? Sounds like a con job to me.

The clerics can explain away any bad thing that happens while keeping their followers in a state of morbid guilt and therefore obedience.

(all the best for your recovery, MofF)

Thanks for the good wishes. I am fine and back to correcting Atheists.

 

[Man of Faith]

MoF: You didn't answer my question. Are you saying that if God exists, He is a person, or are you saying that because God is a person, He exists?

I understand God to be a person from what the Bible says and from knowing and interacting with him.

 

[Man of Faith]

He wiped out all life on Earth at one point. How is that just?

Can you understand the concept that sin is worthy of death? Some states have the death penalty so it isn't that far fetched.

 

[Numinous]

Do you consider killing babies because their parents won't worship you just?

I'm just a fly on a wall here, but I gotta ask.
If God knew these babies would turn out to be God hating beings as well, would it be just to kill them as babies or as adults a like, or whenever he wanted to? Logically speaking?

 

[Numinous]

He wiped out all life on Earth at one point. How is that just?

Same logic here. If God knew everyone that was on Earth was evil and would never be "godly" or even if there were some that would become godly, why isn't God justified in killing them? The good ones go to heaven and the bad ones go wherever they go.
Just askin...

 

[waitasec]

He wiped out all life on Earth at one point. How is that just?

because everyone was unjust, of course?
:sarcastic

but then...
gen 8
...“Never again will I curse the ground because of humans, even though every inclination of the human heart is evil from childhood. And never again will I destroy all living creatures, as I have done.

so god killed everything because man was evil but decided not to do it again because man is evil....


looks like god has everything under control....

 

[bhaktajan]

Originally Posted by Autodidact
Do you consider killing babies because their parents won't worship you just?

Here is a most cynical; yet, true-to-life fact of life:
Everytime a baby is killed, paid advertising sponsors on the TV News are paying millions to advertise their Brand Name during the News Intermission ---and also, many quaffed haired, make-up wearing, tailored suit donning, very wellspoken & educated News-Anchor has paid their high-rent maintance fees . . . at least for this month; what to speak of the Union-labor force behind the scenes of each News Report; which traditionally ends with sport.

And their are many people that think God turns a blind eye to sufferring amongst those that so blase to complain about Goverment leaders that have no other pastime than to make society an extended fiefdom.

Originally Posted by Autodidact
Do you consider killing babies because their parents won't worship you just?

Here is an even more cynical; yet, true-to-life fact of life:
Everytime a murderer kills someone ---taxes go up & school tuition raise too ---I guess you get waht you pay for ---So if everyone pays more then they will study harder so that things will change by dint of the cleverness of the next generation who could only wish they were as noble as "The greatest Generation".

 

[Eliot Wild]

Same logic here. If God knew everyone that was on Earth was evil and would never be "godly" or even if there were some that would become godly, why isn't God justified in killing them? The good ones go to heaven and the bad ones go wherever they go.
Just askin...

Because that lacks the consistency of a 'perfect' being. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying I have the 'perfect' definition for 'perfection'. And I certainly don't know for sure what a perfect being looks like, although Neil Peart from the rock band Rush is very close in my opinion.

But I think we can all recognize certain characteristics of perfection. And further, inherent to being in a state of perfection would seem to me to be the characteristic of consistency. If one is perfect, one does not change, as perfection is an absolute state.

So, your question leads me to answer it thusly: It isn't that God would be 'unjust' for killing the evil doer, as God's justice could certainly be arbitrary. As a matter of fact, I'd say it is since I'm not really down with the whole, "lusting-in-our-hearts" thing. I'd like to have a bit of validating reason from God on that one, but alas, I don't think his validation will be forthcoming.

Anyway, it is inconsistent to 'prematurely' punish the planet for wayward sinning in one aspect, then assert that everyone other than the people in Noah's time get the entire length of their natural lives to turn from 'evil doers' to 'good doers'. It seems like God kind of shafted Noah's contemporaries, at least to me it does. Everybody else who has ever lived got judged at the end of their lives. Noah and his neighbors got judged prematurely and only Noah was found to be worthy.

That is inconsistent and therefore imperfect. Or, again, so it seems to me.

 

[bhaktajan]

Here is an even more cynical; yet, true-to-life fact of life:
It may be thought & argued that God is a NON-Person . . . But , everyone will agree that the GREATEST DEMONS of human history were definitely Persons.

 

[waitasec]

Here is an even more cynical; yet, true-to-life fact of life:
It may be thought & argued that God is a NON-Person . . . But , everyone will agree that the GREATEST DEMONS of human history were definitely Persons.

name one thing a believer can do that a non believer cannot?
_____________________________
name me one thing a non believer can do that a believer cannot?
being good for goodness sake

 

[Numinous]

Because that lacks the consistency of a 'perfect' being. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying I have the 'perfect' definition for 'perfection'. And I certainly don't know for sure what a perfect being looks like, although Neil Peart from the rock band Rush is very close in my opinion.

But I think we can all recognize certain characteristics of perfection. And further, inherent to being in a state of perfection would seem to me to be the characteristic of consistency. If one is perfect, one does not change, as perfection is an absolute state.

So, your question leads me to answer it thusly: It isn't that God would be 'unjust' for killing the evil doer, as God's justice could certainly be arbitrary. As a matter of fact, I'd say it is since I'm not really down with the whole, "lusting-in-our-hearts" thing. I'd like to have a bit of validating reason from God on that one, but alas, I don't think his validation will be forthcoming.

Anyway, it is inconsistent to 'prematurely' punish the planet for wayward sinning in one aspect, then assert that everyone other than the people in Noah's time get the entire length of their natural lives to turn from 'evil doers' to 'good doers'. It seems like God kind of shafted Noah's contemporaries, at least to me it does. Everybody else who has ever lived got judged at the end of their lives. Noah and his neighbors got judged prematurely and only Noah was found to be worthy.

That is inconsistent and therefore imperfect. Or, again, so it seems to me.

So if I understand. A perfect being can only create other perfect beings, to maintain being perfect?
Can more than one thing be perfect? It would seem there would be a hierarchy of all things perfect. First God, then everything else, like a perfect tree, a perfect person etc... Then are all those things equal, or equally perfect?

Can a perfect tree, create a universe?

I have a hard time answering whether or not a perfect God can create anything as perfect as God. Doesn't quite make sense to me. Any how... my brain hurts now...

 

[Eliot Wild]

So if I understand. A perfect being can only create other perfect beings, to maintain being perfect?

Woah, woah, woah . . . When did I say that? I obviously miscommunicated what I was thinking. Because I certainly wasn't thinking that a perfect being is incapable of creating imperfect ones. So, if that's what I actually wrote, please disregard it.

What I thought I said was that inherent to a state of perfection is consistency.

But let's look at it another way. Certainly inherent to the character of Noah's God was fairness and justice, right? So, how fair is it that the 'evil doers' in Noah's world got drowned through God's premature holy sentencing, while the 'evil doers' in other times, such as our own, get to settle with man's fallible, incomplete justice until they meet God in person? I mean, think about, Charlie Manson's still alive and well in a prison in California.

Can more than one thing be perfect? It would seem there would be a hierarchy of all things perfect. First God, then everything else, like a perfect tree, a perfect person etc... Then are all those things equal, or equally perfect?

Can a perfect tree, create a universe?

I have a hard time answering whether or not a perfect God can create anything as perfect as God. Doesn't quite make sense to me. Any how... my brain hurts now.

Yeah, that's not what I was saying. Sorry to have confused the issue. I was not saying that God must be forced to create perfect beings or be satisfied with their imperfection, so if it came out that way, please look past it.

Again, there is a notion of fairness and justice that is more centrally inherent to God's 'perfection'. If He is perfectly fair and just, then destroying a whole planet of people, even itty,bitty newborn babies who've not been given a chance to reform seems a bit 'extreme' to me. Again, granted, if God's omniscience allows him to know that those itty, bitty babies are going to grow up to be godless douche bags, then I find there still to be an inconsistency since God hasn't approached Divine Justice with the same sort of inflexible flood-like effectiveness in all instances as he did in Noah's time. It's, like, acccording to the Noah story, God just got really ticked off at everybody and shut down the party. That doesn't seem fitting with his perfectly just and fair nature, as ascribed to him by many Christians.

 

[Numinous]

Woah, woah, woah . . . When did I say that? I obviously miscommunicated what I was thinking. Because I certainly wasn't thinking that a perfect being is incapable of creating imperfect ones. So, if that's what I actually wrote, please disregard it.

What I thought I said was that inherent to a state of perfection is consistency.

But let's look at it another way. Certainly inherent to the character of Noah's God was fairness and justice, right? So, how fair is it that the 'evil doers' in Noah's world got drowned through God's premature holy sentencing, while the 'evil doers' in other times, such as our own, get to settle with man's fallible, incomplete justice until they meet God in person? I mean, think about, Charlie Manson's still alive and well in a prison in California.





Yeah, that's not what I was saying. Sorry to have confused the issue. I was not saying that God must be forced to create perfect beings or be satisfied with their imperfection, so if it came out that way, please look past it.

Again, there is a notion of fairness and justice that is more centrally inherent to God's 'perfection'. If He is perfectly fair and just, then destroying a whole planet of people, even itty,bitty newborn babies who've not been given a chance to reform seems a bit 'extreme' to me. Again, granted, if God's omniscience allows him to know that those itty, bitty babies are going to grow up to be godless douche bags, then I find there still to be an inconsistency since God hasn't approached Divine Justice with the same sort of inflexible flood-like effectiveness in all instances as he did in Noah's time. It's, like, acccording to the Noah story, God just got really ticked off at everybody and shut down the party. That doesn't seem fitting with his perfectly just and fair nature, as ascribed to him by many Christians.

OK, so I understand, this God would be unjust, because you feel corrupt humans have gone on to live for a long time now, and those in Noah's day were killed abruptly. I am not sure I see the logic here, but it seems you are saying you dislike the time frame that said God would choose to impose justice, and that since this time frame seems odd to you, it is somehow unfair.
I can see that as a personal opinion, but not much more. Am I still not seeing your point?

 

[Eliot Wild]

OK, so I understand, this God would be unjust, because you feel corrupt humans have gone on to live for a long time now, and those in Noah's day were killed abruptly. I am not sure I see the logic here, but it seems you are saying you dislike the time frame that said God would choose to impose justice, and that since this time frame seems odd to you, it is somehow unfair.
I can see that as a personal opinion, but not much more. Am I still not seeing your point?

Yes. And that's not just a personal opinion. I have it on very good authority from an angel who seen the whole thing. He said God was just out of his head that day. He said you couldn't talk to Him or reason with Him at all.

Seriously, how come you see this as just a matter of opinion? Do you not see an objective condition that is inherent to God's execution of Justice? If God's justice and fairness are perfect, then why would it be rendered differently for some people than others?

Do you really think it individual opinion that perfect justice NOT be administered arbitrarily and inconsistently?

 

[PolyHedral]

Can you understand the concept that sin is worthy of death? Some states have the death penalty so it isn't that far fetched.

No, sin is not worthy of causing unrelated damage to innocent animals and plant life. In the hotly debated instances where we do kill in the name of justice, we kill precisely, painlessly and without harming anyone except the executee. God didn't do any of that. He metaphorically nuked the world from orbit, and didn't seem to care about any collateral damage he caused.

 

[Autodidact]

I understand God to be a person from what the Bible says and from knowing and interacting with him.

Are you saying:
1. If God exists, He is a person. OR
2. God is a person. Therefore He exists. OR possibly
3. God exists, and is a person.