God is a person

[Man of Faith]

It's a false comparison to compare countries that force any particular viewpoint to countries that allow freedom of viewpoints.

There are secular countries, like Sweden, where religion does not have a strong influence on the population and yet the population flourishes. In fact, sometimes it flourishes above and beyond any religious country.

Okay, I’ll accept that, however your Swedish comparison is false also because we are talking about how life would be under atheism, not how it would look under secularism with freedom of religion. Atheists tell me that the US is a secular country but 80% of the people believe in God, so secularism and atheism are two different things. Secularism is religious neutral, atheism is religious rejection.

Look at the animal life and that is the atheistic worldview. Animals tear each other up and eat each other, killing indiscriminately. I feed my dogs and the one dog always gets more because he is the biggest and strongest. If any dog tries to get in his way he jumps on him and fights him away. The strong survive under atheism. It is a naturalistic survival of the fittest worldview. No one would want to live under it, not even atheists.

 

[EtuMalku]

Shouldn't that be "God is a BAD person"?

 

[ellenjanuary]

Perhaps you didn't pay close enough attention; I didn't call "god" a cartoon character, I called people's portrayal of god a cartoon character.

Perhaps you didn't pay close attention, for I was sinning right there.
A close look at the first commandment simplifies my entire theology to - god is. Almighty, eternal, nothing. God is god, only needs to be capitalized at the beginning of a sentence.

 

[Meow Mix]

Okay, I’ll accept that, however your Swedish comparison is false also because we are talking about how life would be under atheism, not how it would look under secularism with freedom of religion. Atheists tell me that the US is a secular country but 80% of the people believe in God, so secularism and atheism are two different things. Secularism is religious neutral, atheism is religious rejection.

Look at the animal life and that is the atheistic worldview. Animals tear each other up and eat each other, killing indiscriminately. I feed my dogs and the one dog always gets more because he is the biggest and strongest. If any dog tries to get in his way he jumps on him and fights him away. The strong survive under atheism. It is a naturalistic survival of the fittest worldview. No one would want to live under it, not even atheists.

This is so fundamentally flawed and insulting that I'm not sure whether or not it deserves a refutation or whether I should just say "Wrong!" Feynman style.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Like I said in a previous post, if you want freedom, then you want to live in a country that promotes freedom of religion. Freedom doesn’t happen in a country that promotes atheism.

It seems to me it is secular countries that provide freedom of religion. Back in the day when Europe was made up of "Christian" states. You could only be Christian, and the type of Christian the state deemed acceptable by those in power. Even when America was a colony Quakers were hung in the public square. So Christian counties have no better history of religious tolerance then Communist states.

The evolution of freedom of religion in the Western World was a long time in coming. Even in America, Native Americans were unable to legally practice their religion until the 1970s. Navajo children up till the 1960s were routinely forced into missionary schools and forced to speak English, and practice Christianity. Today the Texas State constitution says you can't hold public office unless you believe in God. In the western world freedom of religion is a secular concept not a religious one. It has just started being implemented in our country. We still have some work before it is time to pat our selves on the back.

 

[Looncall]

Apart from God, man is just a higher order of animal and personal existence is a temporary evolutionary fluke in an impersonal universe. If there is no God then living things are not divinely created and have no intrinsic value, they are looked on as to only what they can contribute to society. The young and the old suffer and are cast aside.

The fact that you do not like how things actually are is not proof of the truth of your superstitions. It is your superstitions that bring you to despise your own humanity.

People can reason and create satisfactory societies without input from your superstitions. The chief impediment to this is superstition.

 

[Penumbra]

Okay, I’ll accept that, however your Swedish comparison is false also because we are talking about how life would be under atheism, not how it would look under secularism with freedom of religion. Atheists tell me that the US is a secular country but 80% of the people believe in God, so secularism and atheism are two different things. Secularism is religious neutral, atheism is religious rejection.

Atheism is simply the disbelief in gods. It advocates no specific political structure.

The observation is simple. There are fairly religious countries that operate fairly well, and religious countries that are totalitarian and ignorant. There are fairly atheist countries that operate fairly well, and atheist countries that are totalitarian and ignorant.

Atheism does not borrow from Christianity any more than it borrows from other religions and any more than all of these religions borrow simply from human nature. Cultures shape religions and religions shape cultures.

Look at the animal life and that is the atheistic worldview. Animals tear each other up and eat each other, killing indiscriminately. I feed my dogs and the one dog always gets more because he is the biggest and strongest. If any dog tries to get in his way he jumps on him and fights him away. The strong survive under atheism. It is a naturalistic survival of the fittest worldview. No one would want to live under it, not even atheists.

This is based on a partial misunderstanding of survival of the fittest.

For some highly developed social animals, such as humans, altruism plays a large part in what makes that animal "fit". Fittest, in that context, means being able to work together the best. Humans, canines, dolphins, parrots, elephants- these are some examples of creatures that do well in part because they work well together, some more than others.

Besides, if nature is cruel, then theists likely have some explaining to do as to why that is.

 

[Man of Faith]

Atheism is simply the disbelief in gods. It advocates no specific political structure.

The observation is simple. There are fairly religious countries that operate fairly well, and religious countries that are totalitarian and ignorant. There are fairly atheist countries that operate fairly well, and atheist countries that are totalitarian and ignorant.

Atheism does not borrow from Christianity any more than it borrows from other religions and any more than all of these religions borrow simply from human nature. Cultures shape religions and religions shape cultures.


This is based on a partial misunderstanding of survival of the fittest.

For some highly developed social animals, such as humans, altruism plays a large part in what makes that animal "fit". Fittest, in that context, means being able to work together the best. Humans, canines, dolphins, parrots, elephants- these are some examples of creatures that do well in part because they work well together, some more than others.

Besides, if nature is cruel, then theists likely have some explaining to do as to why that is.

We already went over this, Atheists don't live like there is no God, not one of them. They all live like there is a foundation for morality, logic, personhood and meaning and purpose in their lives. You even admitted yourself that every community that you go to you accepet that rape is absolutely immoral in all situations. The Atheist worldview is morals should be up to society and there are no absolute morals. So you don't live like an Atheist none of them do.

 

[outhouse]

We already went over this, Atheists don't live like there is no God, not one of them. .

I think your digging holes you cant climb out of

I live like theres no god myth

They all live like there is a foundation for morality, logic, personhood and meaning and purpose in their lives

one does not need to beleive in a myth to live a great life.

 

[Man of Faith]

I think your digging holes you cant climb out of

I live like theres no god myth



one does not need to beleive in a myth to live a great life.

The point I am trying to make is if someone says that there are more Atheists in this country and they live better than the Christians in that country, that doesn't mean anything when the Atheists are living like believers. They are living like there is a God.

 

[Penumbra]

We already went over this, Atheists don't live like there is no God, not one of them. They all live like there is a foundation for morality, logic, personhood and meaning and purpose in their lives. You even admitted yourself that every community that you go to you accepet that rape is absolutely immoral in all situations. The Atheist worldview is morals should be up to society and there are no absolute morals. So you don't live like an Atheist none of them do.

I'm not sure what country you're from. I am in the United States. Maybe you are too, or maybe you're from somewhere else.

In the history of the US, slavery was considered acceptable and legal. The Bible was sometimes used as justification for this. There was a time when women could not vote. There was a time when alcohol was legal, and then a time when it was not, and then a time when it was legal again. There was a time when there was no economic safety net for people. There were/are times when the country's highest office has allowed torture to occur. There were two instances where nuclear bombs were dropped on civilians. A debate is currently raging whether homosexuals should be able to serve openly in the military and/or to marry each other and receive legal benefits as a married couple. There have been several wars for which it has been debated if there was any point to them at all.

Where is the foundation for morality?

 

[idea]

So, you don't consider rage and hatred to be bad?

Depends on what causes the rage/hatred... If someone rapes/kills your daughter/wife/husband/son, yes, you should be enraged.

 

[idea]

I'm not sure what country you're from. I am in the United States.

me too...

Marx stated: "Communism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism...

Vladimir Lenin "A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could."

North Korea is officially atheistic...

so, do you prefer the morals of atheistic countries?

Maybe you are too, or maybe you're from somewhere else.

In the history of the US, slavery was considered acceptable and legal.

actually, slavery was never legal... just because a bunch of people do it (like drugs) does not make it legal.

Slavery Was Illegal and Unconstitutional

thousands fought and died in this country to end slavery.

There was a time when women could not vote.

one vote was cast per family...

There was a time when alcohol was legal, and then a time when it was not, and then a time when it was legal again.

David Nutt: Alcohol More Dangerous Than Crack - Health Blog - CBS News
A new study says alcohol is more destructive than illegal drugs like heroin and crack...

There was a time when there was no economic safety net for people.

there was a time when families / church groups took care of one another, and a time where people kept what they worked for...

There were/are times when the country's highest office has allowed torture to occur.

in order to gain inforamtion that saved countless lives.

There were two instances where nuclear bombs were dropped on civilians.

drop the bomb and force the Emperor to surrender, end the war... or let the war drag on, kill hundreds of thousands more US troops...​

Where is the foundation for morality?

When it is a choice between two evils, (like drop the bomb or kill US troops and lengthen the war)... those who have gone before tried to choose the lesser of the two evils.

 

[Falvlun]

I didn't say that Atheists deny personhood, what I said was that there is no foundation for personhood in the Atheists worldview. Sure Atheists accept personhood but they have to borrow from the Christian worldview in order to do that. This is not a conscious decision, borrowing from the Christian worldview that is. The Atheist, at least the ones in America and Europe, have been living under the laws and morals of Christianity for so long, they don’t even realize when they are going against their own worldview.

I don’t even believe that most Atheists understand or would want to truly live in a country that adheres to their own worldview. It would be a scary way of life indeed. Look at Russia and the millions killed under Stalin, look at North Korea. Only Communist and socialist states promote atheism and are the most suppressors of individual freedoms and personhood. Apart from God, man is just a higher order of animal and personal existence is a temporary evolutionary fluke in an impersonal universe. If there is no God then living things are not divinely created and have no intrinsic value, they are looked on as to only what they can contribute to society. The young and the old suffer and are cast aside.

Look at my definitions again. Tell me specifically how God is required to explain any of them. As far as I can tell, you can believe in personhood without needing God.

All you are showing us is that you, personally, would not value people if you did not believe they were divinely created by God. That's pretty sick, man.

 

[Penumbra]

me too...

Marx stated: "Communism begins from the outset (Owen) with atheism...

Vladimir Lenin "A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion not in an abstract way, not on the basis of remote, purely theoretical, never varying preaching, but in a concrete way, on the basis of the class struggle which is going on in practice and is educating the masses more and better than anything else could."

North Korea is officially atheistic...

so, do you prefer the morals of atheistic countries?

Marx, Lennin, and Kim do not define atheism.

Would I like to live in those countries? No. Would I like to live in theocracies? No. I'd like to live in secular countries that are filled with educated, compassionate, and reasonable people.

actually, slavery was never legal... just because a bunch of people do it (like drugs) does not make it legal.

Slavery Was Illegal and Unconstitutional

Read this list of laws and cases regarding slavery:
Slavery (1787 - 1863): Selected Laws and Policies affecting African Americans

In the Constitution:
-Membership in the House of Representatives was based on population but counted slaves as 3/5ths of a person. (Article 1, Section 2)
-Certain persons can be legally regarded as property and returned as such (Article 4, Section 2)

thousands fought and died in this country to end slavery.

And thousands fought and died in this country to keep slavery.

And all of this you've presented is regardless of the point anyway. Morality is subjective because even about such a major thing as slavery, there was mass disagreement about it. Things we take for granted as obvious today were not taken for granted as such years ago. This is because morality is subjective. People make it up as they go along.

one vote was cast per family...

The original constitution did not specify whether women had the right to vote or not. Amendment 14 specifically refers to rights of males. It was Amendment 19 that gave women the right to vote (more specifically, it said that women could not be denied the vote.)

In most instances, women simply could not vote. It was a different culture, and again, you're focusing on the legal aspects of it rather than the moral aspects of it. Much of society didn't believe women should have full and equal rights of men when it came to choosing leaders. Why? Because morality is and was subjective.

David Nutt: Alcohol More Dangerous Than Crack - Health Blog - CBS News

A new study says alcohol is more destructive than illegal drugs like heroin and crack...

Not on an individual basis. It's more destructive because more people use it and therefore more people use it poorly. It can be used without harm, if used in moderation.

More importantly were various attitudes about it. Attitudes changed because morality is subjective.

there was a time when families / church groups took care of one another, and a time where people kept what they worked for...

Let's not pretend that people didn't slip through that system. Like slaves, Native Americans, and even Caucasians.

in order to gain inforamtion that saved countless lives.

drop the bomb and force the Emperor to surrender, end the war... or let the war drag on, kill hundreds of thousands more US troops...

​

When it is a choice between two evils, (like drop the bomb or kill US troops and lengthen the war)... those who have gone before tried to choose the lesser of the two evils.

Is that how you justify it? Well I say it's not justifiable.

I guess it's subjective.

 

[Autodidact]

Therefore he wills, feels, thinks, enjoys, loves, desires, and suffers like any person does. And I can cultivate a relationship with him just like I can with any person. I wouldn’t tell any person that they don’t exist, use their name while cursing, or do what they don’t want me to if I want to cultivate a relationship with them. I would talk to them and try to find out how to please them.

Do you feel the same way about Superman?

 

[Autodidact]

When people communicated only face to face, was the method of cell phone communication tangible and available to everyone and can be verified by anyone? These things take time.

You communicate in a way that hasn't been invented yet? I thought God was a person, and could be communicated with like any other. Apparently not?

 

[Autodidact]

My best answer is I don't know how it works, just like when cell phones weren't invented yet, people didn't know how they worked. I will have to wait on scientists to figure it out like everyone else does. Today it seems that only God and maybe satan uses that type of communication.

You communicate with this person in a way that you yourself do not understand? This gets curiouser and curiouser. If you don't understand it, how do you know it's God on the other end?

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

We already went over this, Atheists don't live like there is no God, not one of them. They all live like there is a foundation for morality, logic, personhood and meaning and purpose in their lives. You even admitted yourself that every community that you go to you accepet that rape is absolutely immoral in all situations. The Atheist worldview is morals should be up to society and there are no absolute morals. So you don't live like an Atheist none of them do.

You do know that I know of at least 2 religions that are Atheistic in nature. Both
Theravada Buddhism and Jainism have lead many to the highest standards in morals. Most Christian sects have a much more checkered past then they do.

 

[fantome profane]

God is a person

Therefore he wills, feels, thinks, enjoys, loves, desires, and suffers like any person does. And I can cultivate a relationship with him just like I can with any person. I wouldn’t tell any person that they don’t exist, use their name while cursing, or do what they don’t want me to if I want to cultivate a relationship with them. I would talk to them and try to find out how to please them.

FSM is a pasta


Therefore he is delicious, nutritious …