Audie
Veteran Member
Dragon eat noodle.
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God is disproven by science? Really?
- Thread starter MrIntelligentDesign
- Start date
I call it gross!
Khabeni412
Member
A general deist God can not be disproven. But I assume your Christian, and the Christian god is easily disproven. We know for a fact because of evolution that Adam and Eve never existed. Without them, sin never entered the world. Without sin, there is no need for atonement. Thus, no need for Jesus. Without Jesus Christianity is worthless. There is also no evidence that Jesus was even a real person.
stvdv
Veteran Member
God is disproven by science? Really?
Easy to disprove such Scientist, Atheist claim
GardenLady
Active Member
Some of us have a different perspective. I certainly don’t see Genesis as literal. Yet here we are as humans who have selves and have chosen self-will over God’s will and self over the benefits/needs of others in many cases. And there is sin. Essentially, sin comes down to selfishness.
exchemist
Veteran Member
Hmm, this strikes me as a rather superficial argument. Most mainstream Christian denominations treat the Genesis story as allegorical. The nature of sin does not depend, in most Christianity today, on that story being literally true. The predisposition of Man to do wrong is something that arises from his moral awareness (cf. tree of knowledge of good and evil), which developed along with his growing mental capacity as Man evolved from the other apes, and the fact that in spite of this awareness he nevertheless often choses to do what he knows to be wrong. The Genesis story is really a story of loss of childlike innocence and progress to adulthood, with its attendant cares, responsibilities and failures.
No but I've see his dad's gravestone.
Gravestone of Tiberius Iulius Abdes Pantera at Römerhalle museum, Germany.
I'm pretty sure he was a real person, just not the person depicted in the bible. Consider, crucifixion was a Roman execution method reserved for terrorists and traitors to Rome, not preachers.
exchemist
Veteran Member
As in "INRI" - "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews".
An initialism first used in the 10th century i believe.
exchemist
Veteran Member
Could be, as convenient for depiction in art - hard to show a long piece of text.
The story of Pilate describing Jesus as "King of the Jews" appears in all 4 gospels, however, so is earlier.
Possible written (certainly compiled) over 300 years after his death.
Alternatively, kings of that period were often violend and blood thirsty despots. Perhaps the words are genuine but taken out of context.
Audie
Veteran Member
Did you just prove you've difficulties with English?
God is disproven by science? Really?
Easy to disprove such Scientist, Atheist claim
Agreed. The existence of non-interventionalist god cannot be demonstrated or excluded, but we are justified in being indifferent regarding whether such a thing exists or existed. If the proposed deity doesn't actually modify our reality through revelation, answering prayer, performing miracles, appearing on earth and the like, the quest of whether it exists is irrelevant, and you likely know that that position has a name - apatheism.
And I agree that Christianity falls apart if its myths aren't literally true. People who believe that science will call the myths metaphor or allegory rather than error, but isn't that what the unbeliever does as well, but doesn't stop with just the myths falsified by science, but rejects the unfalsifiable, "supernatural" claims about gods and angels and afterlives as well.
The attitude of the believer seems to be to find ways to make these stories meaningful and consistent with his god belief, and so he only rejects those that have been disproven and claims that their authors never meant them literally, and keeps believing everything else which cannot be ruled out. The temperament and demeanor of the critically thinking empiricist is to take the opposite tack and reject everything that isn't sufficiently justified to believe whether ruled out or simply never ruled in.
But yes to your claim that if the Garden Story didn't literally happen, then the fundamental doctrine in which the religion is based is myth. Believers still blame man for being a sinner, which they consider his fault and the result of a free will act of disobedience. Anybody who thinks otherwise just needs to read some of the discussion on free will in these threads, where the faithful are forced to try to reconcile free will with divine omniscience and even call it a gift of God despite it leading to disaster almost immediately. They need free will because they seem to think it justifies the choice to damn assorted souls made by an allegedly perfectly good god.
ElishaElijah
Return
You could check these sources from this Illustrated Bible, it has many archeological references as well, but to say Jesus Christ never existed is false, didn’t think anyone would say that, but here we are.
Attachments
The only way to interpret any of the Christian concepts regarding salvation is symbolically. The literalist approach fails at any given point, whether a believer is a creationist, or moderate who accepts evolution and an old universe. At some point the believer has to treat Bible stories as real and true, and it causes a consistency problem one way or another. Christianity was permanently ruined at some stage in history in that the ideas were treated as fact instead of symbolic. And as a result modern Christianity brings confusion and disagreement as a core element. If it had been able to remain a mystic religion it could have avoided many of the problems it has today. The dilemma with mysticism is that is can't exploit follower's weaknesses for social/political control, and it requires a lot of lessons and mentorship. The path of least resistance was dogma and complicance through a hierarchical authority. And Christianity evolved this way to being a rather superifical religion today, where anything goes. It's a religion that allows its members to torture and execute people for witchcraft, to commit the Holocaust, to being slave owners, to deny science, to justify inhumane treatment of any group it feels is threatening, to being hypocritical in regards to morality and ethics.
Look at how many creationists deny fact and science, and this is all due to the toxicity of Christianity. I see toxic Christians as living a hellish state of mind, while those who accept science and reality, including many Christians, can live in a heavenly state, a state of balance that allows navigating life from personal moral sense and humility. The more extreme a believer of any stripe shows intolerance and morally empty ghosts, who have an allegiance to dogma over anything else. I don't envy them.
An illustrated copy of a Tale of Two Cities has many historical references, but is a work of fiction. The same for For Whom the Bell Tolls. As does The Razor's Edge. As does The Cauldron. And all these novels are more credible than the Bible none of these include implausble supernatural elements.
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Audie
Veteran Member
Start with that nobody by that name evrr existed.
Where / when " jesus" was born or died, nobody knows.
So whatever is said is made up.
Nobofy recordred his " sayings". So those are
deeply suspect.
Is this " jesus" a composite character, did he do any of
what is claimed?
He is hardly the only god/ king/ human who died and will
come back some day, acfording to many similar myths.
Archaeology? Sure,,they fiund Egypt.
Any hint of supernatural? Of course not.
I must admit, during my early-ish days as an atheist i presumed that based on the evidence, Jesus didn't exist.
However, studying Rome +/- 100 years of the birth of the empire, and seeing his [Jesus] fathers gravestone convinced me otherwise. Though he surly didn't exist as described in the bible.
See My view on Jesus. for the full story as i see it
ElishaElijah
Return
He is doing great things today through believers by the Holy Spirit in The Name of Jesus Christ. People are being saved, born again, healed and delivered from demons, being set free just like I was 35 years ago.
Bible prophecy is being fulfilled in the Middle East and has been since I’ve been alive, I just never paid attention to that until I got saved and started reading the Bible, especially Daniel.
