God is in control, what does that mean?

[Twilight Hue]

We all found out on January 6th that - at least in the US's current political climate - an armed citizenry is as likely to support a tyrant as it is to try to overthrow one.

True. Anything is possible.

 

[exchemist]

Exchemist;
Sure you are right and can take guns away, but that doesn't stop anyone from trying to choke a person out instead. Gun is just the subjective problem while the problem remains that a human being made the conscious choice to kill someone (unless they were under some type of drug: and not only just filled with rage, hatred, and anger). Of course this is my own opinion.

But it is a lot harder to kill a person by these other methods. You have to really want to, badly. Pulling a trigger is done in the blink of an eye, you don't have to even touch the victim, and it can be done on impulse.

 

[F1fan]

Looks like they were waiting to cross the Delaware.

Which must flow right through Congress.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Which must flow right through Congress.

Bad GPS.

 

[pearl]

Difficult to understand theists.

Life is terribly unfair, a crapshoot, a play of the dice. Our faith is in the belief that we are not alone, God is with us, in Jesus, gone before us. Does someone really expect that God would magically stop the bullet from reaching the child, or the car with the gunman suddenly snatched up etc. Exactly, what was realistically expected of God?

 

[pearl]

But it is a lot harder to kill a person by these other methods. You have to really want to, badly. Pulling a trigger is done in the blink of an eye, you don't have to even touch the victim, and it can be done on impulse.

Of course it is, the gun is the coward's way.

 

[metis]

But it is a lot harder to kill a person by these other methods.

An example of that was a man in China who went to an elementary classroom near the time of the Sandy Hook massacre and stabbed 22 children, and all 22 survived. Now, if he had gone in with an AR-15, ...

 

[exchemist]

Of course it is, the gun is the coward's way.

I suppose so, but that was not so much my point, which is that in the heat of the moment it is so easy to squeeze a trigger without reflecting. If you have to strangle them, or even knife them, it takes a lot more physical force and thus commitment to the act. And with a gun, you can kill many people at once too, which sadly we see all too often.

 

[InChrist]

If he were being consistent, it would mean that no only is God responsible for everything we see in the world - including all the evil - but also that everything - including the evil - was God's deliberate choice.

Yet, that is not what the biblical scriptures show. On the contrary, humans are shown to be responsible for their actions and the evil they commit against one another. The first murder of Abel by his brother Cain recorded shows that Cain acted in sin against God’s will and the blood of his brother was on his hands. Cain chose to commit murder.

 

[InChrist]

We all found out on January 6th that - at least in the US's current political climate - an armed citizenry is as likely to support a tyrant as it is to try to overthrow one.

Except no citizen brought or used a gun.

 

[InChrist]

Well, just 10 days ago here in my neighbourhood, two kids -- a 10 year old girl and her 4 year old brother -- were playing in their own driveway on a quiet suburban street, when a 16 year old boy lost control of a car and plowed into them. Killing them both.

Good thing "God was in control," I suppose -- because nobody else seems to have been.

Frankly, I turn to the opening of Ecclesiastes, Chapter 1:

1 The words of the Teacher, son of David, king in Jerusalem:

2 “Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.”

Truly sad about those children being killed, yet I don’t think with limited human ability we can understand the larger eternal ramifications of the tragedies we witness in this life as God does.
And the writer of Ecclesiastes concludes...


“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:

Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.”

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yet, that is not what the biblical scriptures show.

You need quite a bit of interpretation (mental gymnastics?) to come to that conclusion, IMO.

On the contrary, humans are shown to be responsible for their actions and the evil they commit against one another. The first murder of Abel by his brother Cain recorded shows that Cain acted in sin against God’s will and the blood of his brother was on his hands. Cain chose to commit murder.

So you're saying that God lost control of his creation very early on and never regained it?

 

[InChrist]

You need quite a bit of interpretation (mental gymnastics?) to come to that conclusion, IMO.

So you're saying that God lost control of his creation very early on and never regained it?

Maybe you should read the passage again...


So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire isfor you, but you should rule over it.”

8 Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

9 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?”

He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”

10 And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground. 11 So now you arecursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand.
Genesis 4:6-11


The scriptures never say or show that God’s intention is to control every thought or action of those He created. Humans were created with the ability to choose obedience or disobedience, right or wrong, good or evil.

 

[Trailblazer]

I can't understand what Bahaollah was trying to say. When a child is killed, God is in control. When you are mugged, God is in control. When a war happens (Israel / Palestine for the moment), God is in control. When a woman is raped, God is in Control. When 168,581,604 people get the virus and 3,501,428 people die of it, God is in control.

God is ultimately in control of everything....

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

.....but since people on earth have free will they are free to act as they wish, and God does not intervene, or at least not usually or that we can detect. God allows people to do evil and that is why we see evil in the world. God does not approve of evil but God allows evil.

And who is the 'fruit of my tree'? Why is Bahaollah's prayer only for the 'fruit of his tree' and not for all humanity?
Holy sheet. Difficult to understand theists.

I think that the 'fruit of His tree' is all of humanity, and that Baha'u'llah was addressing all of humanity in that tablet, not just Baha'is, although they are probably the only ones reading the tablet.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Except no citizen brought or used a gun.

There are more ways to arm yourself than just a gun. Many of the protestors had weapons.

And personally, I see the Jan. 6 putsch as just one element of a larger campaign, including things like the "open carry" protests at state capitols the week after the coup attempt failed, plus the earlier armed occupation of the Michigan legislature. I suppose this may be a hasty generalization, though; maybe there's some nuance that differentiates these groups of traitors that I'm not seeing.

BTW: how are you sure that nobody in the Capitol Hill putsch was carrying guns? It's not like any of them were going through the security checkpoints.

 

[Trailblazer]

If he were being consistent, it would mean that no only is God responsible for everything we see in the world - including all the evil - but also that everything - including the evil - was God's deliberate choice.

No, the evil is not God's choice, it is man's choice, because man has free will and God does not intervene and override human free will. See post above this.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Maybe you should read the passage again ....

I'm not interested in your Bible. I'm just responding to what you're saying.

The scriptures never say or show that God’s intention is to control every thought or action of those He created. Humans were created with the ability to choose obedience or disobedience, right or wrong, good or evil.

So it's not so much that God lost control as it is that God was never in control in the first place?

You could have just opened with that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, the evil is not God's choice, it is man's choice, because man has free will and God does not intervene and override human free will. See post above this.

So God is not in control, then.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, the evil is not God's choice, it is man's choice, because man has free will and God does not intervene and override human free will. See post above this.

This is nonsense, of course, but regardless: if you're saying that God has put humans in control, then God is not in control.

 

[InChrist]

I'm not interested in your Bible. I'm just responding to what you're saying.



So it's not so much that God lost control as it is that God was never in control in the first place?

You could have just opened with that.

If you are not interested in what the Bible actually says, then don’t tell me I’m playing mental gymnastics with interpretation.

Humans have freedom to choose now. God is letting humanity live out their choices and consequences. There will be no doubt concerning God’s ultimate control and justice on Judgement Day.