God is in control, what does that mean?

[InChrist]

This is nonsense, of course, but regardless: if you're saying that God has put humans in control, then God is not in control.

God in His sovereignty chose to give humans dominion over the earth.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Does someone really expect that God would magically stop the bullet from reaching the child, or the car with the gunman suddenly snatched up etc. Exactly, what was realistically expected of God?

Can he not? You believe he created the universe in six days and rested on the seventh.

 

[Aupmanyav]

God is ultimately in control of everything....
“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/GWB/gwb-103.html#pg209

I think that the 'fruit of His tree' is all of humanity, and that Baha'u'llah was addressing all of humanity in that tablet, not just Baha'is, although they are probably the only ones reading the tablet.

Is God mad or a sadist that he does not banishes such acts? Why does he willeth in the way he willeth?

And how, in the name of Cthulhu, I am a fruit of the tree of a 19th Century uneducated Iranian snake-oil seller?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If you are not interested in what the Bible actually says, then don’t tell me I’m playing mental gymnastics with interpretation.

Humans have freedom to choose now. God is letting humanity live out their choices and consequences. There will be no doubt concerning God’s ultimate control and justice on Judgement Day.

Wait - so now you're saying that control is God's goal? A few posts back, you said it wasn't.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

God in His sovereignty chose to give humans dominion over the earth.

IOW, it's humans and not God who have dominion over the earth.

Did you mean to agree with me?

 

[Trailblazer]

So God is not in control, then.

God gave man free will so God allows humans to choose to do things, but God is ultimately in control.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209

It is just as illusion of we think we are in control because God can override our free will choices at any time since God is all-powerful.

 

[exchemist]

Then why not say that instead?

I agree. I think it is stupid things to say in the circumstances. That was my point - and that of the OP, I think.

 

[exchemist]

Even the middle east?

You think they have effective gun control in the Middle East, do you? Really?

But I see, right on cue, my point is illustrated by this new thread: Multiple casualties reported in San Jose shooting

 

[Trailblazer]

Is God mad or a sadist that he does not banishes such acts? Why does he willeth in the way he willeth?

It is not God's responsibility to banish evil acts, it is a human responsibility.

And how, in the name of Cthulhu, I am a fruit of the tree of a 19th Century uneducated Iranian snake-oil seller?

You are not the fruit of Baha'u'llah's tree, you are the fruit of God's tree.

 

[Twilight Hue]

You think they have effective gun control in the Middle East, do you? Really?

But I see, right on cue, my point is illustrated by this new thread: Multiple casualties reported in San Jose shooting

Think regulating guns is going to regulate human behavior?

 

[Trailblazer]

This is nonsense, of course, but regardless: if you're saying that God has put humans in control, then God is not in control.

It is kind of like in driver's ed. The teacher allows the student to drive the car but the teacher can get back in the driver's seat any time if he wants to.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Truly sad about those children being killed, yet I don’t think with limited human ability we can understand the larger eternal ramifications of the tragedies we witness in this life as God does.
And the writer of Ecclesiastes concludes...


“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:

Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.”

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

Which reads, in the end, as if it's all pure happenstance. "Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer chances, eh?"

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Maybe you should read the passage again...


So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? 7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door. And its desire isfor you, but you should rule over it.”

8 Now Cain talked with Abel his brother; and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

9 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Where is Abel your brother?”

He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother’s keeper?”

10 And He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood cries out to Me from the ground. 11 So now you arecursed from the earth, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand.
Genesis 4:6-11


The scriptures never say or show that God’s intention is to control every thought or action of those He created. Humans were created with the ability to choose obedience or disobedience, right or wrong, good or evil.

I really do wish you could understand that there are things that happen to people over which they have ZERO control and ZERO free will -- but this simple fact just seems to be far beyond your thinking capacity.

If you are walking peacefully down the street, and a sink hole opens up and swallows you whole and kills you -- it's got squat to do with anybody's "free will." Can you understand that simple fact?

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Life is terribly unfair, a crapshoot, a play of the dice. Our faith is in the belief that we are not alone, God is with us, in Jesus, gone before us. Does someone really expect that God would magically stop the bullet from reaching the child, or the car with the gunman suddenly snatched up etc. Exactly, what was realistically expected of God?

Then what you are saying that life without God is a crapshoot -- and life WITH God is a crapshoot -- no difference. So what use is God?

 

[Trailblazer]

I really do wish you could understand that there are things that happen to people over which they have ZERO control and ZERO free will -- but this simple fact just seems to be far beyond your thinking capacity.

If you are walking peacefully down the street, and a sink hole opens up and swallows you whole and kills you -- it's got squat to do with anybody's "free will." Can you understand that simple fact?

I understand that there are things that happen to people over which they have ZERO control and ZERO free will, as that is in the Baha'i Writings. I guess you could say these are the things that are fated, and God is in charge of fate.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.” Some Answered Questions, p. 248

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Life is terribly unfair, a crapshoot, a play of the dice. Our faith is in the belief that we are not alone, God is with us, in Jesus, gone before us. Does someone really expect that God would magically stop the bullet from reaching the child, or the car with the gunman suddenly snatched up etc. Exactly, what was realistically expected of God?

Just change the characters, and maybe you'll see it.

Instead of a bullet, make it a rapist, and instead of God, make it Dad. "Oh, look," says Dad, "that guy is raping little Sally. Well, what can be done, eh?"

Trust me, Daddy would be on the baddie with all fists flying mightily.

God is much stronger than Daddy, and knows everything. And sits on his proverbial hands.

 

[Trailblazer]

Life is terribly unfair, a crapshoot, a play of the dice. Our faith is in the belief that we are not alone, God is with us, in Jesus, gone before us.

But why is life so unfair if God is loving and just?
And why good does it do to believe that God is with us ?
And where is God?

I think these are all legitimate questions but the first one is the one that needs to be answered.

 

[MatthewA]

But it is a lot harder to kill a person by these other methods. You have to really want to, badly. Pulling a trigger is done in the blink of an eye, you don't have to even touch the victim, and it can be done on impulse.

You right about that: The other day heard a story about this man who had got of hold of a woman, and put a screwdriver to her neck and told her basically she was going to end up dead if she did not listen.

There are so many stories out there.

 

[1213]

...
“I try to just lay it out to them in a simple way so that they can understand that bad things happen even to a godly situation…

God’s in control, we try to make them understand what that means.”

What is that supposed to mean? ...

Would be best to ask from the person, but, I think it means, every life is in God’s hands. Even if body dies, it is not the end, God can take person to eternal life with Him, where the is no sorrow. This way no earthly calamity is ever the end or as worse as it would be in atheistic world view.

 

[InChrist]

I really do wish you could understand that there are things that happen to people over which they have ZERO control and ZERO free will -- but this simple fact just seems to be far beyond your thinking capacity.

If you are walking peacefully down the street, and a sink hole opens up and swallows you whole and kills you -- it's got squat to do with anybody's "free will." Can you understand that simple fact?

I never said anything to the effect that there are not things which happen to people unrelated to control or the freewill of one(s) involved, did I? I realize such things occur everyday.
For one thing there are billions of people exercising their freewill and often someone’s wrong choices negatively impact another. Secondly, the scriptures reveal that all of creation is groaning and impacted by the damaging effects is sin. This is a fallen world and bad things happen, no one is immune.

Anyway, thanks for expressing your thoughts.