God/Jesus sinned. Genocide is a sin of high order.

[tomspug]

God/Jesus sinned. Genocide is a sin of high order.

This is a truth.

I will entertain opposing views.

Regards
DL

Is it a sin to kill Hitler in order to end genocide, or would you call that genocide too?

 

[Freelancer7]

Define Genocide and how The Father, The Son, or The Holy Spirit could possibly blamed?????????????

 

[Greatest I am]

To create a sinless man would defeat the purpose of man.

Exactly but so few see this.

They see a fall where I see a glorious leap to history.
Knowledge over ignorance.
Thank God Eve ate.

Regards
DL

 

[Smoke]

No, you've missed the logic. There are cases in scripture where God orders the destruction of entire cultures (heck, the whole world in one episode). However, the handlers of those very same scriptures never found in those stories an implied command to go out and kill everyone who is not of their faith or their race. Quite the contrary, in fact. Please explain, if these texts mean what they say they mean, the people of this God haven't formed this moral imperative.

You only have to try to exterminate one gens to commit genocide. The "People of God" as exemplified by the Yahwist Hebrews and the "People of God" as exemplified by the Christian Germans who supported Hitler and carried out his orders differ only to the extent that there were more Jews than Amalekites, and the modern "People of God" were less successful in exterminating the hated people than the ancient "People of God" were.

In fact, the "People of God" haven't been overly literal about the lesson they learned from Israel and the Amalekites, and they've been known to apply the principle to other cases. Pope Urban II referred to the Amalekites when sending the Crusaders off to smite the infidel in the Holy Land:

Moreover, you who are to go shall have us praying for you; we shall have you fighting for God's people. It is our duty to pray, yours to fight against the Amalekites. With Moses, we shall extend unwearied hands in prayer to Heaven, while you go forth and brandish the sword, like dauntless warriors, against Amalek.
​

Martin Luther caught the spirit of the lesson without specifically invoking Amalek:

Heretics are not to be disputed with, but to be condemned unheard, and while they perish by fire, the faithful ought to pursue the evil to its source, and bathe their hands in the blood of the Catholic bishops, and of the Pope, who is the devil in disguise.
​

Just two years ago, Rabbi Jack Riemer invoked the extermination of Amalek in discussing the threat from "Islamo-fascism":

Let me say today -- and I take no pleasure in saying this; I wish that I were wrong in saying this -- but I am slowly but surely and reluctantly becoming convinced that we of the western world are confronting the kind of evil that Amalek represents. I am becoming convinced that Islamic Fundamentalism, or, as some people prefer to call it, "Islamo-fascism", is the most dangerous force that we have ever faced and that it is worthy of the name: Amalek.

The two great challenges of the twentieth century were Nazism, and Communism. And, God knows, they were each mighty threats. It cost untold lives and untold billions to defeat each of them. And yet, let me say, in all seriousness, that I am beginning to fear that the danger of Islamic Fundamentalism may be more serious than either of those two awful movements were.
​

The very fact that it seems natural to you to refer to people like yourself as "the People of God" exemplifies the way the self-styled "People of God" regard themselves in comparison to all others.

 

[Greatest I am]

Define Genocide and how The Father, The Son, or The Holy Spirit could possibly blamed?????????????

The dictionary definition will do.

Who do you blame for the death of children and babies?

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

You only have to try to exterminate one gens to commit genocide. The "People of God" as exemplified by the Yahwist Hebrews and the "People of God" as exemplified by the Christian Germans who supported Hitler and carried out his orders differ only to the extent that there were more Jews than Amalekites, and the modern "People of God" were less successful in exterminating the hated people than the ancient "People of God" were.

In fact, the "People of God" haven't been overly literal about the lesson they learned from Israel and the Amalekites, and they've been known to apply the principle to other cases. Pope Urban II referred to the Amalekites when sending the Crusaders off to smite the infidel in the Holy Land:

Moreover, you who are to go shall have us praying for you; we shall have you fighting for God's people. It is our duty to pray, yours to fight against the Amalekites. With Moses, we shall extend unwearied hands in prayer to Heaven, while you go forth and brandish the sword, like dauntless warriors, against Amalek.
​

Martin Luther caught the spirit of the lesson without specifically invoking Amalek:

Heretics are not to be disputed with, but to be condemned unheard, and while they perish by fire, the faithful ought to pursue the evil to its source, and bathe their hands in the blood of the Catholic bishops, and of the Pope, who is the devil in disguise.
​

Just two years ago, Rabbi Jack Riemer invoked the extermination of Amalek in discussing the threat from "Islamo-fascism":

Let me say today -- and I take no pleasure in saying this; I wish that I were wrong in saying this -- but I am slowly but surely and reluctantly becoming convinced that we of the western world are confronting the kind of evil that Amalek represents. I am becoming convinced that Islamic Fundamentalism, or, as some people prefer to call it, "Islamo-fascism", is the most dangerous force that we have ever faced and that it is worthy of the name: Amalek.

The two great challenges of the twentieth century were Nazism, and Communism. And, God knows, they were each mighty threats. It cost untold lives and untold billions to defeat each of them. And yet, let me say, in all seriousness, that I am beginning to fear that the danger of Islamic Fundamentalism may be more serious than either of those two awful movements were.
​

The very fact that it seems natural to you to refer to people like yourself as "the People of God" exemplifies the way the self-styled "People of God" regard themselves in comparison to all others.

God creating souls.

Perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect, one for the chosen, oops that one is for hell, perfect, perfect, oops for hell,
One for a chosen one, one for a heathen, oops a scrap one.

I guess that the same reason that God cannot make a sinless man is the same reason He screws up on the creation of perfect natures and souls. Oh well.
I guess we have to live with His incompetence.

Regards
DL

 

[ayani]

Penguin, the God of the OT and of the New are the same. God still disciplines, corrects, destroys, and sifts in the New, as well.

look at Luke 21:20-24, Acts 5:1-11, and Acts 12:20-23. Jesus predicts that armies will soon surround Jerusalem and lay ruin to it, exactly because it has rejected the Messiah. God still punishes the proud, the dishonest, and the ungodly.

the Adonai of the OT and the Abba of the NT are one and the same- the Son has taught us mercy, self-control, forgiveness, and humility, an in Himself has demonstrated these qualities, too. we are to leave revenge and correction for God, who is certainly capable of bringing low and raising high as He pleases.

 

[Greatest I am]

Penguin, the God of the OT and of the New are the same. God still disciplines, corrects, destroys, and sifts in the New, as well.

look at Luke 21:20-24, Acts 5:1-11, and Acts 12:20-23. Jesus predicts that armies will soon surround Jerusalem and lay ruin to it, exactly because it has rejected the Messiah. God still punishes the proud, the dishonest, and the ungodly.

the Adonai of the OT and the Abba of the NT are one and the same- the Son has taught us mercy, self-control, forgiveness, and humility, an in Himself has demonstrated these qualities, too. we are to leave revenge and correction for God, who is certainly capable of bringing low and raising high as He pleases.

I can see where He has lowered many to death. I do not see anyone that is raised.
Strange that God only shows Himself at times of destruction of His perfect works.


Deuteronomy 32:4
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Why do you think He must kill part of His perfections? God is not supposed to goof on the creation of perfect souls?

Regards
DL

 

[Eddy Daze]

Sometimes mass killing or conversion maybe needed to save the planet, imagine that it was only industrialisation that was causing global warming leading to the extinction of the human race and we knew this in advance, so the people who are causing the problem either change or die for the sake of all. That would be an unsavioury fact, and I would not like it, but we need to bite the truth sometimes, and they were warned about mans love of money, and I suppose you could consider anti-bodies going about their duty in order to save the main body.

 

[Greatest I am]

Sometimes mass killing or conversion maybe needed to save the planet, imagine that it was only industrialisation that was causing global warming leading to the extinction of the human race and we knew this in advance, so the people who are causing the problem either change or die for the sake of all. That would be an unsavioury fact, and I would not like it, but we need to bite the truth sometimes, and they were warned about mans love of money, and I suppose you could consider anti-bodies going about their duty in order to save the main body.

Hitler thought as you do.
If we all did then we would nuke China and end all our environmental problems. Sounds good Eh

Regards
DL

 

[Scuba Pete]

This is a truth.

I find your concept of "truth" lacking.

Just because men said "God made me do it", doesn't make it so. The current US administration uses the same line of bunk to justify their invasion of Iraq.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Penguin, the God of the OT and of the New are the same. God still disciplines, corrects, destroys, and sifts in the New, as well.

My issue with the God of the Bible wasn't lack of consistency; my point is that the Bible, especially the Old Testament (though I acknowledge your point about the New), is depicted as doing many horrendous, evil things. The fact that these things continue to a certain extent in the New Testament doesn't improve my opinion of Him.

I find your concept of "truth" lacking.

Just because men said "God made me do it", doesn't make it so. The current US administration uses the same line of bunk to justify their invasion of Iraq.

And, according to the Bible, the Israelites used it to justify their invasion of Canaan and genocide of the Amakelites.

Personally, I find it eminently reasonable to reject the idea that God made them do these things and instead assume that the Israelites either chose to do them on their own (if there's a grain of fact in the stories), or never did them at all (if the stories were just made up). However, I also realize that rejecting the idea that God did the things attributed to Him in the Bible would have serious implications for many versions of Jewish, Christian and perhaps Muslim theology; not all, but many.

BTW: glad to see you back, Pete.

 

[Scuba Pete]

However, I also realize that rejecting the idea that God did the things attributed to Him in the Bible would have serious implications for many versions of Jewish, Christian and perhaps Muslim theology; not all, but many.

It's important to note that neither the New Testament or Old Testament Scriptures claim to be without error. Those who contend that they do are merely ADDING to them, which is something they expressly forbid. In reality, the only implication then would be to reject more human concepts in favor of humbly accepting the scriptures for what they are.

 

[Eddy Daze]

Hitler thought as you do.
If we all did then we would nuke China and end all our environmental problems. Sounds good Eh

Regards
DL

No Hitler did not think the same has me It would have been genocide of most of his own people instead, as they were big poluters, its a semi- hyperthetical situation, if we knew the future and it was down to making a stark choice regarding a type of person that was going to destroy the planet what would we do ? a)Nothing and let all creatures including man die b) enforce change via a global gov. c) remove the cause of the planets death......I would have in the past said "Educate" but because of the love of making money educating is not working they are just rebuilding, or trying to rebuild the whole system

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's important to note that neither the New Testament or Old Testament Scriptures claim to be without error. Those who contend that they do are merely ADDING to them, which is something they expressly forbid. In reality, the only implication then would be to reject more human concepts in favor of humbly accepting the scriptures for what they are.

I see where you're coming from about Biblical inerrancy claims. At the same time, though, the Bible also says that the Scriptures are useful/profitable for doctrine, instruction in righteousness, etc. IMO, the lessons that a person would draw from the slaughter of the Amakelites, for example, would be different depending if it were literal, factual history or a metaphoric parable (and they'd be very different if they had just been made up altogether). Don't you have to make some determination of the accuracy of the text if you're going to use it to teach yourself or others?

 

[Scuba Pete]

I see where you're coming from about Biblical inerrancy claims. At the same time, though, the Bible also says that the Scriptures are useful/profitable for doctrine, instruction in righteousness, etc. IMO, the lessons that a person would draw from the slaughter of the Amakelites, for example, would be different depending if it were literal, factual history or a metaphoric parable (and they'd be very different if they had just been made up altogether). Don't you have to make some determination of the accuracy of the text if you're going to use it to teach yourself or others?

Ah... the text you are referencing is in the NT. Christianity has been completely freed from having to observe the OT. Too many literalists and too many who are not of the faith trying to hold Christianity to literalism. Freedom is what Christianity is all about. It's all it's ever been about.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ah... the text you are referencing is in the NT. Christianity has been completely freed from having to observe the OT.

Completely? I'm not sure where that comes from. I understand that perspective when it comes to concepts revolving around sin and the Old Law specifically, but do you think that Christ's sacrifice has a bearing on whether the Old Testament stories of historical events actually happened or not?

Too many literalists and too many who are not of the faith trying to hold Christianity to literalism.

Yeah, it puzzles me when I see non-Christians do that. I think the Biblical literalist is an easier target, and some people like to engage in lazy debate and not try to find out what the Christian they're debating with actually thinks and believes.

Freedom is what Christianity is all about. It's all it's ever been about.

Freedom from death the burden of sin, sure. But freedom from factuality?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Completely? I'm not sure where that comes from. I understand that perspective when it comes to concepts revolving around sin and the Old Law specifically, but do you think that Christ's sacrifice has a bearing on whether the Old Testament stories of historical events actually happened or not?

No. The OT made many prophecies about him, but his sacrifice and subsequent resurrection stands on their own.

Yeah, it puzzles me when I see non-Christians do that. I think the Biblical literalist is an easier target, and some people like to engage in lazy debate and not try to find out what the Christian they're debating with actually thinks and believes.

It's why I eschew debate in favor of discussion. The former is combative in nature and the aim is to WIN! The latter is more about discovery and enlightenment, and has a more positive feel to it.

Freedom from death the burden of sin, sure. But freedom from factuality?

I don't recall saying "Freedom from factuality". The freedom is from assumptions and a myriad of man made laws.

 

[Greatest I am]

I find your concept of "truth" lacking.

Just because men said "God made me do it", doesn't make it so. The current US administration uses the same line of bunk to justify their invasion of Iraq.

You lost me.

When did I say anything about -god made me do it-.

Regards
DL

 

[Scuba Pete]

Gee, that wasn't hard!

Look at your OP. What is your "truth" based on?