God/Jesus sinned. Genocide is a sin of high order.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No. The OT made many prophecies about him, but his sacrifice and subsequent resurrection stands on their own.

Right, but the OT doesn't just talk about the Messiah; it also talks about Moses, Elijah and all sorts of other prophets; it talks about Saul, David, Solomon and all sorts of other kings; it talks about bondage in Egypt, the Exodus, bondage in Babylon and all sorts of other things that sure look to me like they're trying to be historical accounts.

I think you can certainly make a case that the New Testament sets aside the Old Law. I think you could even potentially make a case that the New Testament renders the events of the Old Testament irrelevant for salvation, but the New Testament doesn't wipe away past events that have happened, and in that regard, the question of how accurate a historical record the Old Testament is still applies.

It's why I eschew debate in favor of discussion. The former is combative in nature and the aim is to WIN! The latter is more about discovery and enlightenment, and has a more positive feel to it.

Sure. I can sometimes get a positive feel from a good debate as well, though... but dishonest debating is just a waste of time, and I think that's what's going on when non-Christians insist on treating the Bible as inerrant just so they can dismiss the whole thing in one broad stroke.

I don't recall saying "Freedom from factuality". The freedom is from assumptions and a myriad of man made laws.

Okay, and again, I can see where you're coming from in that regard. However, most of this thread has been about asking whether God did things like kill the first-born sons of Egypt, and what the implications are if He did. Whatever the New Testament says, God either did that or He didn't.

 

[Greatest I am]

Ah... the text you are referencing is in the NT. Christianity has been completely freed from having to observe the OT. Too many literalists and too many who are not of the faith trying to hold Christianity to literalism. Freedom is what Christianity is all about. It's all it's ever been about.

Christianity is to produce sheeple, not free people.

If you exercise that freedom and if God does not like it you go to hell for eternity.

This is freedom?

Regards
DL

 

[Eddy Daze]

There is nothing wrong with being a sheep if it will save you from the wolf
I think if I were a Christian I would just listen to what Christ had to say and not some churchmans interpretation, of course if there was a church person who I recognised as fully surrendered to Christ I would take note, Mother Theresa perhaps? living the word

 

[Greatest I am]

Gee, that wasn't hard!

Look at your OP. What is your "truth" based on?

Are you saying that genocide is not a sin?
Hitler did not sin?

Regards
DL

 

[Scuba Pete]

Christianity is to produce sheeple, not free people.

If you exercise that freedom and if God does not like it you go to hell for eternity.

This is freedom?

This is a complete misunderstanding/mischaracterization of Christianity. Thanks for your cup of condescension, but I get enough thrown my way already!

 

[Scuba Pete]

Are you saying that genocide is not a sin?
Hitler did not sin?

I get it. You would rather troll than try to understand. For those who are following this at home, at issue is whether God or Jesus committed genocide. GIA, contends this is some sort of universal truth, while I suggest that he's merely a troll intent on irritating those who believe differently then he does.

 

[Greatest I am]

There is nothing wrong with being a sheep if it will save you from the wolf
I think if I were a Christian I would just listen to what Christ had to say and not some churchmans interpretation, of course if there was a church person who I recognised as fully surrendered to Christ I would take note, Mother Theresa perhaps? living the word

Time travel to the time of the Christ? Good luck with that.

Personally, I would not listen to much that was being said by a genocidal maniac. At least not for something to follow. Perhaps the reverse.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

This is a complete misunderstanding/mischaracterization of Christianity. Thanks for your cup of condescension, but I get enough thrown my way already!

I was not being condescending. I was stating a fact.

Regards
DL

 

[Greatest I am]

I get it. You would rather troll than try to understand. For those who are following this at home, at issue is whether God or Jesus committed genocide. GIA, contends this is some sort of universal truth, while I suggest that he's merely a troll intent on irritating those who believe differently then he does.

You have yet to state a belief.
Typical Christian. If you can't or wont answer a hard question then the names come out.

Go away if you cannot answer a verry simple question.

Regards
DL

 

[Scuba Pete]

Right, but the OT doesn't just talk about the Messiah; it also talks about Moses, Elijah and all sorts of other prophets; it talks about Saul, David, Solomon and all sorts of other kings; it talks about bondage in Egypt, the Exodus, bondage in Babylon and all sorts of other things that sure look to me like they're trying to be historical accounts.

Again, the OT never represents itself as being FREE from error. In fact, it was written over many centuries, and much of it was transcribed from a verbal tradition for many years before. Treating it as a text book OR a science book is a deviation from what it really is: a blog about man trying to figure out God. It is often used to romanticize war and to embellish tribal warfare into being something far more than it really is. Listen to Al Queda's mishmash of what they believe to be true about America and how they have defeated the great Satan to get an idea of this.

I think you can certainly make a case that the New Testament sets aside the Old Law. I think you could even potentially make a case that the New Testament renders the events of the Old Testament irrelevant for salvation, but the New Testament doesn't wipe away past events that have happened, and in that regard, the question of how accurate a historical record the Old Testament is still applies.

The OT is merely a convenient stepping stone for God to introduce his son. Nothing more.

Sure. I can sometimes get a positive feel from a good debate as well, though... but dishonest debating is just a waste of time, and I think that's what's going on when non-Christians insist on treating the Bible as inerrant just so they can dismiss the whole thing in one broad stroke.

The current thread is such an obvious attempt at someone trying to poison the well so they can feel smugly superior. It accomplishes absolutely NOTHING in the long run.

Okay, and again, I can see where you're coming from in that regard. However, most of this thread has been about asking whether God did things like kill the first-born sons of Egypt, and what the implications are if He did. Whatever the New Testament says, God either did that or He didn't.

Again, listen to the ramblings of the current jihadists and see how similar those accounts of war in the OT appear. It's rather astonishing on so many levels. Man is intent on using God to justify his UNGODLY actions.

God has ALWAYS been a God of Love and Peace. The only war he promotes is on HATE. It's a war of the SPIRIT and not of the FLESH.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I was not being condescending. I was stating a fact.

You have YET to state a fact. Trolling does not constitute a fact.

 

[Scuba Pete]

You have yet to state a belief.
Typical Christian. If you can't or wont answer a hard question then the names come out.

Go away if you cannot answer a verry simple question.

I see, when your trolling is exposed as such, you just want me to "go away". I have stated my beliefs clearly without the need to troll.

You have yet to prove or provide any evidence to support your initial premise: God/Jesus committed genocide. By definition, genocide is an atrocity. Now show us that God committed such an act. Don't worry, we're patient. We can wait for you to come up with something cute.

This is typical of trollish behavior, where the thrust is to not understand but to castigate. You have not answered my counter contention, that MAN USES GOD TO JUSTIFY HIS UNGODLY ACTIONS. Just like them, you want to blame GOD, which in my mind makes you just as guilty in perpetuating the myth.

 

[Greatest I am]

I see, when your trolling is exposed as such, you just want me to "go away". I have stated my beliefs clearly without the need to troll.

You have yet to prove or provide any evidence to support your initial premise: God/Jesus committed genocide. By definition, genocide is an atrocity. Now show us that God committed such an act. Don't worry, we're patient. We can wait for you to come up with something cute.

This is typical of trollish behavior, where the thrust is to not understand but to castigate. You have not answered my counter contention, that MAN USES GOD TO JUSTIFY HIS UNGODLY ACTIONS. Just like them, you want to blame GOD, which in my mind makes you just as guilty in perpetuating the myth.

You must be some piece of work if you do not see killing all but 8 humans on the earth as an atrocity.

I want to be a God sure but not the genocidal maniac that you follow. Ask Noah if the flood was an atrocity or not. He had to watch all those children and babies drown.

Regards
DL

 

[Scuba Pete]

You must be some piece of work if you do not see killing all but 8 humans on the earth as an atrocity.

You must be some piece of work if you think God did that. That, or just an angry and bitter person trying to justify his rejection of God with semantics.

I want to be a God sure but not the genocidal maniac that you follow. Ask Noah if the flood was an atrocity or not. He had to watch all those children and babies drown.

So, you see death from natural events as an atrocity? Interesting. Are you one of those who thinks that Katrina hit the Big Easy because of rampant homosexuality? Wow. I would suggest that you are far more genocidal than God. Better at blame shifting too!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Again, the OT never represents itself as being FREE from error. In fact, it was written over many centuries, and much of it was transcribed from a verbal tradition for many years before. Treating it as a text book OR a science book is a deviation from what it really is: a blog about man trying to figure out God. It is often used to romanticize war and to embellish tribal warfare into being something far more than it really is. Listen to Al Queda's mishmash of what they believe to be true about America and how they have defeated the great Satan to get an idea of this.

I get that impression as well, but I think taking that position implicitly says that the position of others is wrong, for example the people in this thread who have claimed that God did do the things attributed to Him in the OT, but

The OT is merely a convenient stepping stone for God to introduce his son. Nothing more.

It's fine if you believe that, but I think that as far as Christians go, you'd be in the minority by holding that position. The fact that we've got controversies about putting the Ten Commandments up on courthouse lawns and the fact that there seems to be a market for Noah's Ark children's toys indicates that many Christians do place some amount of value on other aspects of the Old Testament.

The current thread is such an obvious attempt at someone trying to poison the well so they can feel smugly superior. It accomplishes absolutely NOTHING in the long run.

That's not my intent here.

Again, listen to the ramblings of the current jihadists and see how similar those accounts of war in the OT appear. It's rather astonishing on so many levels. Man is intent on using God to justify his UNGODLY actions.

I agree.

God has ALWAYS been a God of Love and Peace. The only war he promotes is on HATE. It's a war of the SPIRIT and not of the FLESH.

Great if you believe that, but I think that the Bible paints a different picture. I certainly see how this conflict can be resolved by declaring the Bible picture to be inaccurate, but I think that other Christians and Jews have taken a different position... there are even a fair number in this thread.

 

[Greatest I am]

You must be some piece of work if you think God did that. That, or just an angry and bitter person trying to justify his rejection of God with semantics. So, you see death from natural events as an atrocity? Interesting. Are you one of those who thinks that Katrina hit the Big Easy because of rampant homosexuality? Wow. I would suggest that you are far more genocidal than God. Better at blame shifting too!

Noah's flood was a natural event?

Regards
DL

 

[Smoke]

The current thread is such an obvious attempt at someone trying to poison the well so they can feel smugly superior.

In view of the rich traditions of Judaism, I think there are many who would view the two sentences before that in exactly the same light.

The OT is merely a convenient stepping stone for God to introduce his son. Nothing more.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Noah's flood was a natural event?

Aren't all floods? Next, you'll be telling us that a chariot hauls the sun through the sky, merely because some Romans claimed that's the way it happened.

People are always looking to complicate the simple. How many extremists claim that the tsunami or a particular hurricane was due to God punishing some heinous sin. Do you believe them??? Wow, I have a bridge in Arizona I want to sell you. Some beach front property there as well.

The Biblical story of the flood was not only GREATLY exaggerated in the constant re-telling of it (it was written down much, much later), it was given the very same "God did it to punish us" twist. Welcome to man's tendency to incorporate revisionism and embellishment.

So, who committed a genocide? Hitler? Yes. God? Absolutely not. Does man tend to blame God for bad things like YOU are doing now? Obviously.

 

[Paroxys]

Even if we take the Bible at full value, and consider the Great flood as "genocide," God still technically isn't a sinner. To sin, by definition is to disobey God or go against his will (according to the Bible at least). God being himself, can't possibly logically do that.

Another way to perhaps examine this, is that rules on murder apply only to humans, not God, the problem with your analysis is that you are humanizing God. It would be wrong for humans to kill other humans, but for God to kill humans would perhaps be most aptly described as us killing ants. The rules "He" sets for us don't apply to him.

That being said, I personally feel that this line of reasoning is just a huge copout.

 

[Eddy Daze]

He can also overright his laws at times if need be, also consider a shepherd who tricks his sheep to move one way because of danger, who is going to hold it against him?