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God may punish but eternity in hell?

Faithfreedom

i gotta change my avatar
So how would you explain the biblical passage which says, "For as in Adam, all die. Even so, in Christ shall all be made alive"? If God didn't resurrect the wicked, "all" would not be made alive.
Were the wicked in Christ? I don't think so. All those who are in Christ shall be made alive. Does that mean Christians only? No. So who else will be resurrected?
The apostle Paul said, "There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." - Acts 24:15. So who are "the righteous" and who are "the unrighteous"?

"The righteous" include many of the people we read about in the Bible who lived before Jesus came to the earth - i.e Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, Ruth, Ester, and many others.

"The unrighteous" include all the people who did not serve or obey Jehovah because they never knew about him. They will be resurrected and given time to learn about the true God and to serve him.

Now, does that mean that every human who has ever lived will be resurrected? No. The bible says that some of the dead are in "Gehenna." - Luke 12:5. Gehenna got its name from a garbage dump located outside of ancient Jerusalem. Dead bodies and garbage were buried there. The dead whose bodies were thrown there, were considered by the Jews to be unworthy of a burial and a resurrection. So Gehenna is a fitting symbol of everlasting destruction. Although Jesus will have a role in judging the living and the dead, Jehovah is the final Judge. (Acts10:42) He will never resurrect those whom he judges to be wicked and unwilling to change.

(note: I have borrowed heavily from the J.W publication "What does the Bible Really Teach?". I highly recommend to all those wants to know more about what the bible really teaches, to get hold of a J.W and do a bible study course with them. The J.W will only be too pleased to do this free bible study course with you.)
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
All those who are in Christ shall be made alive.


"For as in Adam, all die. Even so, in Christ shall all be made alive"
Ok, i have a question about the meaning of the first part:

"For as in Adam, all die."

What do you believe it means? does this is mean, that 'all' of the people who have been dying from the time of Adam till now, including the death of us is due to the sin that Adam did?

Also, is it approximately known, how long ago, Adam lived?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Were the wicked in Christ? I don't think so. All those who are in Christ shall be made alive. Does that mean Christians only? No. So who else will be resurrected?
The apostle Paul said, "There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." - Acts 24:15. So who are "the righteous" and who are "the unrighteous"?

"The righteous" include many of the people we read about in the Bible who lived before Jesus came to the earth - i.e Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, Ruth, Ester, and many others.

"The unrighteous" include all the people who did not serve or obey Jehovah because they never knew about him. They will be resurrected and given time to learn about the true God and to serve him.

Now, does that mean that every human who has ever lived will be resurrected? No. The bible says that some of the dead are in "Gehenna." - Luke 12:5. Gehenna got its name from a garbage dump located outside of ancient Jerusalem. Dead bodies and garbage were buried there. The dead whose bodies were thrown there, were considered by the Jews to be unworthy of a burial and a resurrection. So Gehenna is a fitting symbol of everlasting destruction. Although Jesus will have a role in judging the living and the dead, Jehovah is the final Judge. (Acts10:42) He will never resurrect those whom he judges to be wicked and unwilling to change.

(note: I have borrowed heavily from the J.W publication "What does the Bible Really Teach?". I highly recommend to all those wants to know more about what the bible really teaches, to get hold of a J.W and do a bible study course with them. The J.W will only be too pleased to do this free bible study course with you.)
Are you a JW, Faithfreedom? We don't get too awfully many JWs here on RF. I ask primarily because I believe that understanding a person's religious background makes communication easier. I'll respond to your post but would appreciate a response to this question first.
 
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Faithfreedom

i gotta change my avatar
Are you a JW, Faithfreedom? We don't get too awfully many JWs here on RF. I ask primarily because I believe that understanding a person's religious background makes communication easier. I'll respond to your post but would appreciate a response to this question first.
Sure, no problem Katzpur.

I am almost a JW.
Why "almost"?
Because i subscribe to all their teachings, save one.
Which one?
The one prohibiting blood transfusion. (Yes, even in dire circumstances in order to save lives).
So now, i am a church of one. I cannot go back to being a Protestant Christian of the Brethren persuasion.
But i still consider myself a Christian as the basics are there.

Further background:
Ever since as far as i can remember, i have always been interested in the big questions of life. I mean, seeing death (an ant's say) for the first time made me realise that mine also will surely come one day. So starting out as a child, i was an atheist. Then i adopted the religion of my parents - Buddhism. There was bible literature at home and i avail myself to theses. In yr 3 of Primary School (Grade School), i bought a paraphrased bible from some missionaries visiting the school. In Secondary School during lower form 6, i attended gospel classes held in my school (i can't remember the exact term used) and some time after, i finally converted. I remained a Brethren up until a few years ago when I did a bible study with a JW.

Cheers.

ps - my kid is clamoring to have access to this computer. I'll be back later. bye.
 

Faithfreedom

i gotta change my avatar
"For as in Adam, all die. Even so, in Christ shall all be made alive"
Ok, i have a question about the meaning of the first part:

"For as in Adam, all die."

What do you believe it means? does this is mean, that 'all' of the people who have been dying from the time of Adam till now, including the death of us is due to the sin that Adam did?
Yep, that was the meaning that i was trying to convey, " that 'all' of the people who have been dying from the time of Adam till now, including the death of us is due to the sin that Adam did".
The bible (and science) leads me to believe that physical death is a congenital disease. That we were meant to live forever. Now for the spiritual side. I believe that we inherited not only eventual physical death but also eventual spiritual death.

Also, is it approximately known, how long ago, Adam lived?
The bible puts Adam's lifespan as a bit less than 1,000 years.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Assisting? Yeah you tell that to the folks at places like RR. And personally I've never heard a Christian claim that their theology says that God is assisting people that are in hell. It's described as a one way ticket. Also you're own book contradicts your notion on the inflictions of hell.

So?

I never addressed here what Christians do or don't claim, OR their theology!

Also, I have no idea what (or where) "RR" is: to me it only means "railroad."

Oh, really?

I'd be most interested in knowing which book contradicts me about hell. Please be specific when providing a citation because we have 200 volumes of scripture, and I have NO IDEA which passage you're talking about--or even which volume you mean!

Thank you.

Bruce
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
If Adam was a sinner, and if the sin came to the world, because of Adam, then based on this logic, Abraham, Issac, Joseph and Moses be also sinners? What is the fault of all these innocent people who came after Adam? does it me that "All" are sinners as the verse of the Bible says?
"What was the crime of Noah the Prophet? What was the transgression of Joseph the Truthful? "

True: we are all 'innocent' of Adam's sin.
But are we innocent of our own sins?
Adam had no children before he sinned.
Adam originally had human perfection of sound mind and body.
Meaning Adam could only sin on purpose.
Adam, as our imperfect family head, passed down to us his then 'imperfection'.
We being imperfect can sin by mistake.
Whereas, Satan and Adam at creation could only sin on purpose, intentionally, deliberately, willfully; we on the other hand can't stop making sinful mistakes.
If we could stop sinning we would not die.
Death is the price tag or wage that sin pays.
So we can all sin by mistake by thought or deed.
Even Joseph and Noah would have had leanings toward imperfection.
Even at birth a parent knows its child will lean toward imperfection.

Since we can not stop sinning we die.
Since we can not resurrect oneself or another we need someone that can.
Jesus can resurrect us and he will. After resurrection, mankind in general can grow to the same perfectly healthy sound mind and body that Adam originally had; and with human perfection, like Adam at creation, we too can gain everlasting life.
Starting with those of Matthew [25v32] those alive or living at that time of Jesus involvement into mankind's affairs can gain everlasting life without ever having to die, but live on right into the start of Jesus 1000-year reign over a beautiful paradisaic earth when enemy death will be no more.
Rev 21vs4,5; 1st Cor 15v26.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
True: we are all 'innocent' of Adam's sin.

Yes, I agree. We are all innocent of the sin of anyone else. We can be only accounted for our own deeds. Otherwise, that would contradict with the Justice of God.

But are we innocent of our own sins?
I agree. No, We are not.

Adam had no children before he sinned.
Adam originally had human perfection of sound mind and body.
Meaning Adam could only sin on purpose.
Adam, as our imperfect family head, passed down to us his then 'imperfection'.
We being imperfect can sin by mistake.
The summary of your reasoning, come up to say, the reason we are dying is because of the sin of Adam.
But the problem is that, this contradicts with the Bible:

Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."

Therefore if we interpret the verse "For as in Adam, all die." literally, and say that we are all dying because of Adam it would contradict with the verse Deuteronomy 24:16. Because, God says, the children shall not be put to death for the sin of the father.


Since we can not stop sinning we die.

There are evidences that before Adam, human lived on earth. So, if the death is due to Adam's sin, and if sin comes from Adam, then why those before Adam died?
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Yes, I agree. We are all innocent of the sin of anyone else. We can be only accounted for our own deeds. Otherwise, that would contradict with the Justice of God.
I agree. No, We are not.
The summery of your reasoning, come up to say, the reason we are dying is because of the sin of Adam.
But the problem is that, this contradicts with the Bible:
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin."
Therefore if we interpret the verse "For as in Adam, all die." literally, and say that we are all dying because of Adam it would contradict with the verse Deuteronomy 24:16. Because, God says, the children shall not be put to death for the sin of the father.


Please see also Ezekiel 18v20 and 2nd Chron 25v4; Romans 5vs12-19

But we are Not 'put to death' [executed] for Adam's sin.
We die because of our own sins.
Criminals are executed.
Our average dying is not at the hands of an executioner.
Adam's sin was deliberate.
Adam's deliberate sin made him imperfect.
Adam passed down imperfection to us.
Our own imperfection can lead us to sin.
We pay the price for our own sins.

It is the goat-like people of Matthew [25v32] that are executed by the words from Jesus mouth. -Isaiah 11v4; Rev 19 vs11,14,15.

If some human was faithful before Adam we would not suffer the bad consequences of perfect Adam's sin because we would have inherited the human perfection of the faithful obedient one.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
I am almost a JW.
Why "almost"?
Because i subscribe to all their teachings, save one.
Which one?
The one prohibiting blood transfusion. (Yes, even in dire circumstances in order to save lives).
So now, i am a church of one. I cannot go back to being a Protestant Christian of the Brethren persuasion.
But i still consider myself a Christian as the basics are there.
.

Do you believe the Bible is really God's Word?
How do you explain: Acts 15 vs20,28,29 ?

Isn't that also in harmony with: Leviticus 17 vs10-12 ?
Also, Genesis [9v4] is part of the everlasting covenant, or contract, that was made before the Constitution of the Mosaic law.
Wouldn't the everlasting covenant be permanent?
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
If some human was faithful before Adam we would not suffer the bad consequences of perfect Adam's sin because we would have inherited the human perfection of the faithful obedient one.


So, you agree that, before Adam, there were other people living on earth. If so, why Bible refers to Adam as the first man?

"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." Cor. 15:46
 
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Faithfreedom

i gotta change my avatar
Do you believe the Bible is really God's Word?
Yes, I do believe the Bible is really God's Word. I believe also that God gives his holy spirit to every Christian. Thus the christian can communicate with God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is speaking directly to me in my heart and the holy spirit makes what he says alive to me, then i use the bible only as a guideline. I am not bound by the letter of the law. I am bound by the Spirit of the Law - the law of love.

How do you explain: Acts 15 vs20,28,29 ?
What they say is good. The meat i eat is always drained of blood. I do not eat stranggled animals and I have never been in need of a blood transfusion. In fact, i have donated blood on a number of occasions. Blood transfusion did not exist during those times, so we have to use all our facilities to decide whether it is allowed or not. I'm of the opinion that it is permissible.

Isn't that also in harmony with: Leviticus 17 vs10-12 ?
Also, Genesis [9v4] is part of the everlasting covenant, or contract, that was made before the Constitution of the Mosaic law.
Wouldn't the everlasting covenant be permanent?
Jesus said that nothing that we consume can make us unclean. What makes us unclean is what comes out of our hearts - greed, anger,...put your 7 deadly sins here....etc)
"The everlasting covenant" was for Judaism. The Mosaic Law does not apply to Christians. God's Law is now writen in the hearts of Christians.

Btw, to be really technical, everyone who consumes meat is also eating blood. Why? Because it is impossible to get rid of every blood cell in meat. Go ahead and try your best to get rid of all the blood in a piece of meat. Then take it to a lab to test for blood. I gurrentee you it will glow positive for blood under the UV light. So does it break the Mosaic law if we consume a little blood or should it be none at all - in which case we will all be vegans.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
If Adam was a sinner, and if the sin came to the world, because of Adam, then based on this logic, Abraham, Issac, Joseph and Moses be also sinners? What is the fault of all these innocent people who came after Adam?

In fact, the Jewish scriptures REJECT the concept of inheritance of sin (which makes some Christians' insistence on "original sin" all the more bizarre)!

I refer you to Ezekiel 18:14-20.

Peace, :)

Bruce
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
In fact, the Jewish scriptures REJECT the concept of inheritance of sin (which makes some Christians' insistence on "original sin" all the more bizarre)!

I refer you to Ezekiel 18:14-20.

Peace, :)

Bruce

Yes, that shows the point as well, that the concept of "Original Sin inherited from Adam" is NOT what was intended by teachings of Jesus.

But I think, first we have to explain, why Bible says that Adam was the first human, while the science proves that he was not.

The misunderstanding is all due to misinterpretation of Bible which comes from old times, which makes the Bible seem to contradict with science. But if the Bible is interpreted correctly, then it doesn't contradict with science.

"As they have literally interpreted the Word of God, and the sayings and traditions of the Letters of Unity, and expounded them according to their own deficient understanding, they have therefore deprived themselves and all their people of the bountiful showers of the grace and mercies of God." Baha'u'llah, Book of Certitude
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Were the wicked in Christ? I don't think so. All those who are in Christ shall be made alive. Does that mean Christians only? No. So who else will be resurrected?
The apostle Paul said, "There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." - Acts 24:15. So who are "the righteous" and who are "the unrighteous"?

"The righteous" include many of the people we read about in the Bible who lived before Jesus came to the earth - i.e Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Moses, Ruth, Ester, and many others.

"The unrighteous" include all the people who did not serve or obey Jehovah because they never knew about him. They will be resurrected and given time to learn about the true God and to serve him.

Now, does that mean that every human who has ever lived will be resurrected? No. The bible says that some of the dead are in "Gehenna." - Luke 12:5. Gehenna got its name from a garbage dump located outside of ancient Jerusalem. Dead bodies and garbage were buried there. The dead whose bodies were thrown there, were considered by the Jews to be unworthy of a burial and a resurrection. So Gehenna is a fitting symbol of everlasting destruction. Although Jesus will have a role in judging the living and the dead, Jehovah is the final Judge. (Acts10:42) He will never resurrect those whom he judges to be wicked and unwilling to change.
Hi, Faithfreedom. I have time now to repond to your post. Thanks for your patience.

We (members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) believe that God is the Father of the spirits of each and every individual who has ever lived. This means that each and every one of us is literally His spirit son or daughter. We believe that He loves all of us more than we can even begin to comprehend and wants more than anything for us to return to His presence someday. He will do everything in His power to persuade us to recognize His Son, Jesus Christ as the means by which we can be forgiven of our sins and be reconciled to Him. Everything, that is, except force us. He has given us the freedom to choose for ourselves, and He will never revoke that freedom.

That said, we are all born into different circumstances, raised by different parents with different standards and values. Some of us are born into religious families. Some of us are not. Some are born into Christian families, others not. Some are born in parts of the world where Christianity may be known, but not understood or represented accurately. Over the past several millenia, billions have been born at times and in places where Christianity had not even been introduced. Finally, some have been blinded by teachings that others may have been able to clearly see as false.

It is our belief that God will not judge His children as being wicked and unwilling to change without having actually given them the opportunity to change. He won't judge people on the basis of whether they would continue to be unrepentant and rebellious after being taught the truth; instead He will judge them as unrepentant and rebellious only after they actually make the choice themselves to be these things. In other words, we Mormons don't believe He will say, in effect, "Had they known the truth, they would not have accepted it anyway. Therefore they will simply cease to exist and will never be resurrected." We believe instead that He will actually give them the opportunity to exercise their own free will and to make an informed choice after having been taught the truth in an environment where the cultural climate and political ideologies do not impact their ability to understand.

When will this happen? We don't believe it will be after the resurrection. We believe it is happening as we speak. In the Bible, Jesus Christ is said to have descended into the spirit prison (referred to also as hell or to the place the Jehovah's Witnesses' Bible calls "Gehenna") and taught His gospel to the wicked who had lived prior to His early ministry. His physical body, of course, was lying in the tomb at this time, because it was during the period following His own death but before His resurrection. He was in spirit form during this visit, as were those He shared His message with. Although the Bible doesn't elaborate on this event, it seems obvious that He would not have bothered to teach them about repentence and about His atoning sacrifice if it were too late for them to repent.

If you have studied first century Christianity at all, you will know that the Christians of Jesus day, and for a couple of hundred years thereafter, believed that the spirits of all who die enter into a state of either peace and rest (if they were righteous) or to a place of torment and anguish (if they were wicked). It was in this spirit state that they await their own resurrection. I am aware that the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the dead are conscious of nothing. It seems to me, though, that those to whom Jesus Christ taught His gospel were aware of His being among them. It also seems clear to me that Christ would not have promised the repentant thief who hung next to Him on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" if the man would not have been aware of anything at all until his resurrection. There is nowhere where the Bible teaches that this spirit realm has ceased to exist or that it would not serve the same purpose today as it did in the past. We believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is being taught there today, not by Christ Himself as He is with His Father in Heaven, but by His followers who already know of God's plan of salvation. We believe that before anyone stands before God to be judged, all with have been taught the truth. All will have been given the opportunity to actually understand it, to recognize the need for repentance and to know that, if they accept the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, He will be their mediator when they are judged.

Anyway, I could go on, but I'll let you comment on this post before I say more.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Yes, I do believe the Bible is really God's Word. I believe also that God gives his holy spirit to every Christian. Thus the christian can communicate with God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is speaking directly to me in my heart and the holy spirit makes what he says alive to me, then i use the bible only as a guideline. I am not bound by the letter of the law. I am bound by the Spirit of the Law - the law of love.
What they say is good. The meat i eat is always drained of blood. I do not eat stranggled animals and I have never been in need of a blood transfusion. In fact, i have donated blood on a number of occasions. Blood transfusion did not exist during those times, so we have to use all our facilities to decide whether it is allowed or not. I'm of the opinion that it is permissible.
Jesus said that nothing that we consume can make us unclean. What makes us unclean is what comes out of our hearts - greed, anger,...put your 7 deadly sins here....etc)
"The everlasting covenant" was for Judaism. The Mosaic Law does not apply to Christians. God's Law is now writen in the hearts of Christians.
Btw, to be really technical, everyone who consumes meat is also eating blood. Why? Because it is impossible to get rid of every blood cell in meat. Go ahead and try your best to get rid of all the blood in a piece of meat. Then take it to a lab to test for blood. I gurrentee you it will glow positive for blood under the UV light. So does it break the Mosaic law if we consume a little blood or should it be none at all - in which case we will all be vegans.

What did Jeremiah [17v9] say about trusting one's heart?

Isn't it the 'life's blood', whole blood, not vascular residue that was to be drained off ? Gen 9v4

If a doctor told you to 'abstain from alcohol' would you take it into you body by an IV saying: I am not eating [drinking] it?

Is Judaism eternal? According to scripture will Judaism exist forever?
If not, then how can the everlasting covenant apply to something not eternal or lasting forever?
 

Faithfreedom

i gotta change my avatar
Thank-you for your post, Katzpur.

To recap: You believe in an eternal fiery hell where lost souls are tortured forever.
This doctrine does not honor a holy God. It tells of a cruel and sadistic nature.
it is better and more just, not to have resurrected them.
 

Faithfreedom

i gotta change my avatar
What did Jeremiah [17v9] say about trusting one's heart?
He said not to trust one's heart. But that was before the holy spirit was given to all Christians. Now we can hear our Master's voice. This fulfills God's promise that in the last days, his laws will be written in our hearts. (Hint: the voice of the holy spirit is the softest one in our heart. Its the one that suggest the things that we not want to do. Things like forgiving our enemies, love our enemy, donate to poor widows and orphans, help the poor, etc)

Isn't it the 'life's blood', whole blood, not vascular residue that was to be drained off ? Gen 9v4
o0o...i don't know...all blood looks the same to me; i do not differentiate.

If a doctor told you to 'abstain from alcohol' would you take it into you body by an IV saying: I am not eating [drinking] it?
The above is a picture of an alcoholic bending the rules.
I am not a vampire abstaining from drinking blood.
It would be foolish not to have a blood transfusion when a doctor recommends it.
In hospitals where there are facilities for other alternatives. the doctor may not recommend it.
But the majority of hospitals in the world are not so advance.

Is Judaism eternal? According to scripture will Judaism exist forever?
If not, then how can the everlasting covenant apply to something not eternal or lasting forever?
Are there Jews in this world? Then for as long as there are Jews, there is Judaism.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Thank-you for your post, Katzpur.

To recap: You believe in an eternal fiery hell where lost souls are tortured forever.
I do? :eek: Would you please tell me where I said that?

This doctrine does not honor a holy God. It tells of a cruel and sadistic nature.
You're telling me! I can't even begin to conceive of such a God.

it is better and more just, not to have resurrected them.
I thought I had made it clear that my prior post was not a complete explanation of my belief. Apparently not. It appears to me as if you see only two possible options:
1. A God who tortures lost souls in a fiery hell forever.
2. A God who simply does not resurrect some of His children.

I don't believe either of those two options is correct. I'll explain later today as my time is limited right at the moment.
 
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