God may punish but eternity in hell?

[Faithfreedom]

yup, i concur with the post above

 

[waitasec]

Can science with accuracy date the remains of things before the Flood?
Does one really know what effect such a deluge would have on dating things?
What is the oldest dating given on artifacts?

Not exactly science here: but a while back a dead new born was found at the garbage dump. They were saying it was a three month old baby. By tracing the mother because of mail being thrown away with the baby they found out the baby was new born and not two or three months old. So if persons can have trouble dating a new born, just how accurate is dating anything else?
Again, science was not involved [at least I don't think so] but nevertheless how does one really know what some are saying or concluding is really so.

How did diseases survive? Many diseases can't survive in hosts other than humans. Many others can only survive in humans and in short-lived arthropod vectors. The list includes typhus, measles, smallpox, polio, gonorrhea, syphilis. For these diseases to have survived the Flood, they must all have infected one or more of the eight people aboard the Ark.

Other animals aboard the ark must have suffered from multiple diseases, too, since there are other diseases specific to other animals, and the nonspecific diseases must have been somewhere.

Problems with a Global Flood, 2nd edition

 

[InvestigateTruth]

True: we are all 'innocent' of Adam's sin.

What about Noah?

Even Joseph and Noah would have had leanings toward imperfection.

The scripture says the opposite:

“Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.” Gen. 6:10

The Book says Noah was perfect and he walked with God.

Can a man who is perfect and just, at the same time be called a sinner?
Can a man who walked with God, at the same time be called disobedient?
Can a man who walked with God, be called a sinner?

When someone is perfect, it means He does not make any mistake. To do sin, requires imperfection!

The bible (and science) leads me to believe that physical death is a congenital disease. That we were meant to live forever.

Since we can not stop sinning we die.

What about Noah? If physical death is due to sin, why did Noah die?

Genesis 9:28-29 (King James Version):

And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

for now the issue of obedience to God stems back to Adam.

What about the People who lived after Adam, but before the first Prophet who came after Adam?

Did they have any guidance, to tell them the law of God?
If not, can you call them Sinners without first God giving them Law?

Of course not!

"I had not known sin, but by the law" Rom. 7:8

 

[Faithfreedom]

What about Noah?

Noah was a sinner. The bible says, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

The scripture says the opposite:
“Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.” Gen. 6:10
The Book says Noah was perfect and he walked with God.

First bear in mind that i am just giving my opinion. I am not god and i have no right to sit in judgment of anyone. All that i post here is to the best of my ability to reason.
Now we proceed.
Who and How God judges as just, perfect, right etc may not be the way we would see it. Eg. Abraham believed God when God told him that he would be the father of nations. And God credited that to Abraham as righteousness because Abraham believed God. After that Abraham behaved like a coward twice when he deceived 2 rulers about Sarah being his sister (a half-truth). Noah was also a drunkard exposed his nakedness to his youngest son Canaan. And then Noah cursed Canaan. Man!, how bad is that! A father cursing his own son!

Can a man who is perfect and just, at the same time be called a sinner?
Can a man who walked with God, at the same time be called disobedient?
Can a man who walked with God, be called a sinner?

So in the light of the above, i would answer yes to all your questions.

When someone is perfect, it means He does not make any mistake. To do sin, requires imperfection!

Perfection in God's eye does not mean that one cannot make any mistake.
Maybe it means to try one's best to please God.

What about Noah? If physical death is due to sin, why did Noah die?
Genesis 9:28-29 (King James Version):
And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

I still maintain that eventual physical and spiritual death is due to the Original Sin of Adams - ie inherited sin.
I think that if a baby who is born brain dead is kept artificially alive by medical science; that baby will physically grow and eventually die. It will not live forever.
(get my point? The babe was never conscious; never had any thought and therefore no sin - and yet it will eventually die)

 

[URAVIP2ME]

InvestigateTruth-

Apparently the first prophet that came after Adam was not after but during Adam's lifetime.
The first prophecy is at Gen 3v15 given by God as Prophet.
Cain was warned about his behavior and Cain did not listen.

Remember before the 'law' Mosaic law God made covenants or contracts even with Noah. The 'law' made sins manifest or brought sin to light so to speak.

Noah like us was a sinner so Noah died.
2nd Peter 2v5 calling Noah a 'preacher of righteousness' does not mean Noah was sinless. Gen 6v8 says Noah found favor in God's eyes. Verse 9 says Noah was just [righteous] and the KJV wording is ' perfect in his generation' Noah was by comparison faultless among his contemporaries. So we are not talking about Noah being created as a perfect human as Adam was at his creation, but in Noah's generation he was faultless but not sinless in comparison among them.

Perfection in Scripture also carries the thought of absolute and relative.
God has absolute perfection whereas creation is in relative perfection.
Apparently in comparison with Noah the people were far from even a relative perfection.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Noah was a sinner. The bible says, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
First bear in mind that i am just giving my opinion. I am not god and i have no right to sit in judgment of anyone. All that i post here is to the best of my ability to reason.
Now we proceed.
Who and How God judges as just, perfect, right etc may not be the way we would see it. Eg. Abraham believed God when God told him that he would be the father of nations. And God credited that to Abraham as righteousness because Abraham believed God. After that Abraham behaved like a coward twice when he deceived 2 rulers about Sarah being his sister (a half-truth). Noah was also a drunkard exposed his nakedness to his youngest son Canaan. And then Noah cursed Canaan. Man!, how bad is that! A father cursing his own son!
So in the light of the above, i would answer yes to all your questions.
Perfection in God's eye does not mean that one cannot make any mistake.
Maybe it means to try one's best to please God.
I still maintain that eventual physical and spiritual death is due to the Original Sin of Adams - ie inherited sin.
I think that if a baby who is born brain dead is kept artificially alive by medical science; that baby will physically grow and eventually die. It will not live forever.
(get my point? The babe was never conscious; never had any thought and therefore no sin - and yet it will eventually die)

Satan and Adam were created perfect meaning they could only sin on purpose. We being imperfect can sin by mistake.

Perfect for us can be in a relative sense. A cup is perfect to drink out of.

A parent knows at birth that the child's leanings will be toward imperfection.
So even a dead baby if it would have lived would have leanings toward imperfection. The baby already inherited human imperfection from 'father Adam' because Adam, as our family head, chose for the rest of us.
It is because we are innocent of Adam's sin that the shed blood of Jesus can wash us from that inherited imperfection and can lead to everlasting life.

Did Noah get drunk on purpose?
Perhaps the post-flood sunlight fermented Noah's wine more than he realized.

Also, there is a difference between deceit and not giving information to someone not deserving it. If Abraham would have said wife instead of sister [which Sarah was half] then Abraham would have been killed so Sarah could become another's wife.

Didn't David feign insanity at 1st Samuel chapter 21?
It would not have been proper for David to divulge to someone not deserving.

Curse was also the bad consequence of bad actions.
Do you recall anything about the Canaanites behavior?
What are the names of Noah's three sons? Gen 6v10

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Apparently the first prophet that came after Adam was not after but during Adam's lifetime.

The first prophecy is at Gen 3v15 given by God as Prophet.
Cain was warned about his behavior and Cain did not listen.

If that is the case, even Adam before Cain was warned by God. Does it mean that Adam was the first Prophet before Cain? (I believe yes!)

Remember before the 'law' Mosaic law God made covenants or contracts even with Noah.

What you are missing is that, according to the exigencies of the time, God establishes new laws or abrogates certain previous laws which was given through previous messenger of God. The laws that Moses gave, was for the dispensation of the Jewish faith, not before and not after.
And people are only judged by the laws in their own time.
Even Christ changed some of the laws of Moses, such as ‘divorce’. The laws that Christ gave is also only for the dispensation of Christianity.
Every prophet that ever came, according to the needs of the time, through the Wisdom of God either kept or changed certain laws. To that testifies the scriptures. Refer to it!

The 'law' made sins manifest or brought sin to light so to speak.

No, the purpose of the laws of God is not to make sins manifest. The law is given as a guidance to people, so they may become free from sins, if they follow them, even as He said:

“I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.” Exo. 16:5

Noah like us was a sinner

so Noah died.

Again, God in Bible already judged that Noah was a just man.
Should we accept how mortal men judge according to their limited understanding, or should we go with what is written?
Jesus went with what is written, if you recall.

When God judges someone as righteous, that’s the final judgment, even as He said:

“the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him” Ezekiel 18:20

No, He didn’t die spiritually. Only his physical body died. Again you are confusing physical death, by the death of spirit. Never forget! that those are 2 different things.
Even as He said:

“There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.” 1Cor. 15:44

Let me ask you this:

When Jesus called them "Dead" as He said "Let dead bury their dead" was He refering to "natural body" or "spirtual body"?

the KJV wording is ' perfect in his generation' Noah was by comparison faultless among his contemporaries.

So we are not talking about Noah being created as a perfect human as Adam was at his creation, but in Noah's generation he was faultless but not sinless in comparison among them.

Your explanation contradicts with the Scriptures for 2 reasons:

1. Noah was perfect in His generationS
Note the ‘S’ is plural.

2. How could the one who is perfect in the sight of God be also sinful? (remember, Bible is inspired by God!)

Perfection in Scripture also carries the thought of absolute and relative.

God has absolute perfection whereas creation is in relative perfection.

To be sinless, do we need to be absolute perfect, or just to follow the laws of God which is given in every dispensation?

Again, the scriptures say, we only need to follow the laws of God to be sinless! Refer to it!

 

[URAVIP2ME]

InvestigateTruth-

Adam was created sinless not indestructible. Adam had absolute human perfection which was in relative perfection to God's absolute perfection. If Adam had absolute perfection in the sense of being immortal then Adam would have been death proof.
Adam sinned, Adam died.

Sorry I missed the 'S'. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.
Generation have overlapping time frames.
Some of the World War I generation was alive at the time of the World War II generation. Like today, since the WWI generation, overlapping generations, have seen global troubles since the first world war.
Noah lived long enough to see following generations.
So Noah was faultless among all his contemporaries or among overlapping generations.

'Let the dead bury the dead' was in reference to the man with a living father not a dead father. By staying behind and not following Jesus until after the man's father lived out his life was the person begging off from following Jesus.

1st Cor chapter 15 starts out at verse one addressing Jesus: 'brothers'. [brethren]
According to verse 50 Jesus 'brothers' are addressed that flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom. So, in order to go to heaven one can not take one's flesh.[physical]
Those 'brothers' are the same 'brothers' of Matthew 25v40.

Please notice the living sheep-like people of verse 32 are not the 'brothers'
They are offered, like Adam originally was, everlasting life. -vs46.
Everlasting life on earth, whereas the kingdom is heavenly.
That is why Rev 5vs9,10;20v6 shows those redeemed to heaven become immortal.
Immortal or having indestructible life from within as God granted or gifted to Jesus.
-John 5v26.

Adam, on the other hand, was not offered immortality but everlasting life.
Besides choosing obedience or not, Adam was still dependent on outside forces such as having to eat, breathe, etc. in order to continue living forever on earth.
The 'little flock' of Luke 12v32 are not the same as the 'other sheep' of John 10v16.
The other sheep comprise those sheep-like ones of Matt 25v32.
The little flock comprise Jesus 'brothers' of Matt 25v40.

The law proved that, except for Jesus, no one could live up to it.
Their transgressions were made known that they could not keep the law.
As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one. -Rom 3v10; 4v15
Doesn't Gal 3v19 show a need for a redeemer [seed to come]?

By the time of Malachi's day the people were divorcing on frivolous grounds
They were going beyond the Mosaic law.
Jesus gave Christians a new commandment at John 13vs34,35.
Jesus in reference to hardness of hearts [Matthew 19 vs8,9] said the only grounds for Christian divorce was: fornication. The reason Jesus used the word fornication instead of adultery is because fornication is more comprehensive and includes more than just normal or average sex. Fornication from the Greek: ' Porneia' which carries the meaning of un-natural or un-lawful sex such as perverted acts.

During Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth new scrolls or books will be opened.
Following the laws of God will be easier because mankind can grew to the original healthy human perfection of sound mind and body like Adam had at his creation.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

So, in order to go to heaven one cannot take one's flesh.[physical]

That’s right. That’s why Noah left His body, but He (His Spirit which is alive) went to heaven.

The law proved that, except for Jesus, no one could live up to it.

Perfection is relative. Everybody who believed then according to his/her ability follows the laws and teachings. Please see my post #58.
If except for Jesus, no one could live up to it, then, Who is saying this then:
“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” Rom. 8:3

Their transgressions were made known that they could not keep the law.

As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one. -Rom 3v10; 4v15

The bible says, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."

But these are in reference to certain people who lived at that time. If you read from beginning of Rom 3, you see that, by “there is none righteous” is referring to ONLY those Jews and other people living at that time. It is not in reference to the later people. Or people who lived long before them.(You are generalizing it! For all generations and all people, which is not the case)
My whole point of discussing about “Adam”, “Noah” and “Concept of Sin causing Death” was to point out that, what Bible says, is that Sin causes spiritual death, not physical.

Adam was still dependent on outside forces such as having to eat, breathe, etc. in order to continue living forever on earth.

Yes, and that’s why he died. Even if someone is totally free from sin, still is subject to physical death as he would still be dependent on air. So, being free from sin, is the cause of everlasting spiritual life, not physical.

During Jesus peaceful 1000-year reign over earth new scrolls or books will be opened.

If you are going to talk about the 1000-year reign of Jesus, then I will be happy to discuss it only if we go by what is written in the Bible. We Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah is the return of Christ, and already all the promises of Bible with that regards are fulfilled and yes, He wrote 100 volumes of new Books.

 

[Faithfreedom]

Dear URAVIP2ME, let me take stock and see how much we are in agreement on this issue. The OP stipulates that God may punish but not for an eternity in hell.

Are we in agreement that the bible does not support the doctrine of God punishing sinners in an eternal fiery hell? And that there is no such thing as an eternal fiery hell?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Noah was also a drunkard exposed his nakedness to his youngest son Canaan. And then Noah cursed Canaan. Man!, how bad is that! A father cursing his own son!

Did Noah get drunk on purpose?
Perhaps the post-flood sunlight fermented Noah's wine more than he realized.

In Sacred writings, there are many mysteries, though by reading them their mystical meaning may not be known to us. There are many mysteries in the Bible which are written as parables. Even as they who asked: “Why speakest thou unto them in parables?”

And the answer was given: “Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the
kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.” Mat. 13:11

As for the parabolic meaning of the wine, there are also mystical meanings are intended as well. Such as Wine of Love of God, Wine of True Happiness, Wine of Certitude and Wine of Knowledge of God even as He said:

“Therefore God give thee of the dew of heaven, and the fatness of the earth, and plenty of corn and wine” Gen. 27:28

Even as for the flood, it also has mystical and parabolic meaning, even as He said:

“Noah's flood is but the measure of the tears I have shed, and Abraham's fire an ebullition of My soul. Jacob's grief is but a reflection of My sorrows, and Job's afflictions a fraction of My calamity.” Baha’u’llah

Was Noah drunk of this Wine?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

InvestigateTruth-

The time period of Chapter 27 of Genesis is after the Flood.

Noah was drunk on the wine that he drank after leaving the Ark back in chapter 9

Yes, we are in agreement that God does not punish sinners in an eternal fiery hell
because: hell is not fiery and hell is not eternal.

Jesus believed the dead sleep- John 11vs11-14
At death Jesus was in the Bible hell.- Acts 2vs27,31; Psalm 16v10
Hebrew sheol and Greek hades/haides are the common grave of mankind.
Gehenna [often translated hellfire] is a different word from sheol and haides.
Gehenna was a garbage dump outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed and not kept burning forever.
So Gehenna [hellfire] is a fitting symbol of: destruction.
-Psalm 92v7

Rev 20vs13,14 shows hell is temporary. After all in hell [common grave] are 'delivered up' [resurrected], then emptied-out hell, vacant of people, dies a symbolic second death of no return. Even our last enemy 'death' will be no more.
Rev 21vs4,5; 1st Cor 15v26.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That’s right. That’s why Noah left His body, but He (His Spirit which is alive) went to heaven.
Perfection is relative. Everybody who believed then according to his/her ability follows the laws and teachings. Please see my post #58.
If except for Jesus, no one could live up to it, then, Who is saying this then:
“For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” Rom. 8:3
But these are in reference to certain people who lived at that time. If you read from beginning of Rom 3, you see that, by “there is none righteous” is referring to ONLY those Jews and other people living at that time. It is not in reference to the later people. Or people who lived long before them.(You are generalizing it! For all generations and all people, which is not the case)
My whole point of discussing about “Adam”, “Noah” and “Concept of Sin causing Death” was to point out that, what Bible says, is that Sin causes spiritual death, not physical.
Yes, and that’s why he died. Even if someone is totally free from sin, still is subject to physical death as he would still be dependent on air. So, being free from sin, is the cause of everlasting spiritual life, not physical.
If you are going to talk about the 1000-year reign of Jesus, then I will be happy to discuss it only if we go by what is written in the Bible. We Baha’is believe that Baha’u’llah is the return of Christ, and already all the promises of Bible with that regards are fulfilled and yes, He wrote 100 volumes of new Books.

Jesus death opened the way to heaven. Anyone who died 'before' Jesus died did not go to a heavenly reward, Acts 2v34; Matthew 11v11.
Noah is asleep in the grave.- John 11vs11-14; Acts 24v15
Daniel also. Daniel 12vs2,13; Ecc 9v5; Psalm 6v5;13v3;115v17;146v4

Romans 8vs2,3 definitely is not speaking about the old Mosaic law.
The spirit of life in Christ [not the Mosaic law] is what leaves open the possibility of total compassion by Christ.

Romans 3v23 informs all have sinned and come short. -Rom 5v12

The Mosaic Law, starting with Pentecost, was no longer in effect for Christians.

Since the wicked are still on earth, then the peaceful 1000-year reign of Christ has not yet begun. Psalm 92v7; 37vs11,29,38; Proverbs 2vs21,22

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Romans 3v23 informs all have sinned and come short. -Rom 5v12

You seemed to ignore my comment with this verse. Please note that it says "have sinned". So, it is a past sentence and is referring to certain people who lived at that time. It doesn't mean everyone for ever shall be sinful as generally misunderstood

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Noah was drunk on the wine that he drank after leaving the Ark back in chapter 9

Noah was NOT literally drunk. Neither there was any literal flood. neither He was naked. These are what generally misunderstood by literal interpretation.

The wine is a mystic wine.
The Flood is the symbol of the tears of loving kindness of God, even as it was written:

"I wrote unto you with many tears; not that ye should be grieved, but that ye might know the love which I have more abundantly unto you." 2 Cor.2:4

The water was a living water by which people were saved, even as it was written:

"And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life" Gen. 6:17

Note that flesh is the symbol of Sin!

and again was written:

"saved by water." 1Pet. 3:21


and the Ark is a symbol for the faith of God. As it is written:

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house” Heb. 11:7

it is the faith, whoever enters the Ark of the Faith of God, is of the saved ones.


After the flood of loving kindness, the water of life was given by God, Noah asked people to enter the faith (Ark) of God.

After that, when Noah had drunk from the Wine of Love of God, and He was so detached from worldly desires and had come to the poverty (Nakedness symbolizes poverty and detachment from worldly wealth)...


How is it possible that a prophet and chosen one of God who was chosen by God to guide mankind be a drunk and naked man! It’s only due to misinterpretations!

How well, it was said:

"The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools." Prov. 26:8

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Since the wicked are still on earth, then the peaceful 1000-year reign of Christ has not yet begun. Psalm 92v7; 37vs11,29,38; Proverbs 2vs21,22

As it is written, this is in OT, A Psalm or Song for the sabbath day.

What does it have to do with the 1000 reign of Christ?
Which verse says about 1000 year of Christ specifically?

You need to refer to the signs of the End-Time. It is written, That's when He was supposed to come.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Since the wicked are still on earth, then the peaceful 1000-year reign of Christ has not yet begun.

Yes, It has begun. Note that the revelation of God, is like a Tree as it is written. The fruit of peace of the Tree is a gradual fulfillment, not a sudden one.

For example, one of the signs of just before the End was, "there will be rumor of war, then Kingdoms against Kingdoms, Nations against nations."

Clearly this has passed already!
No more kingdoms are left. there are only presidents, prime ministers, MPs...et.
That was in reference to the previous age, which nations and kingdoms raised against each other, such as Emperors and Kingdoms of Rome, Persia, China, Greece, Changiz Khan, etc…

Clearly It has begun, but only if people were not asleep, can see it!
seed turns to tree, gradually!
The sun rises to the middle of sky gradually.
baby is developed in the womb gradually.
What about the revelation of God?
Everything is gradual, but Alas, only what people had imagined!. How well it was said:

"Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?" Psalm 2-2:1

and again He said:

"...vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened." Rom. 1:22

 

[waitasec]

Since the wicked are still on earth, then the peaceful 1000-year reign of Christ has not yet begun. Psalm 92v7; 37vs11,29,38; Proverbs 2vs21,22

Yes, It has begun.

1 john 4:3 But if someone claims to be a prophet and does not acknowledge the truth about Jesus, that person is not from God. Such a person has the spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard is coming into the world and indeed is already here.

according to john the antichrist is about 2000 yrs old

 

[InvestigateTruth]

1 john 4:3 But if someone claims to be a prophet and does not acknowledge the truth about Jesus, that person is not from God. Such a person has the spirit of the Antichrist, which you heard is coming into the world and indeed is already here.

But which prophet you mean, doesn't acknowledge the truth of Jesus? All of them do!