God may punish but eternity in hell?

[InvestigateTruth]

So how would you explain the biblical passage which says, "For as in Adam, all die. Even so, in Christ shall all be made alive"? If God didn't resurrect the wicked, "all" would not be made alive.

True: we are all 'innocent' of Adam's sin.

They were descended from Adam. That is their crime and their transgression.

Yep, that was the meaning that i was trying to convey, " that 'all' of the people who have been dying from the time of Adam till now, including the death of us is due to the sin that Adam did".
The bible (and science) leads me to believe that physical death is a congenital disease.

Human has 2 nature:

1. Physical nature which is related to Natural Body.
2. Spiritual nature which is related to the spirit.

Since Adam was not literally the first human as science proves otherwise. Then the story of Adam has to be a parable, otherwise the legitimacy of Bible would be questioned.

From Bible, it can be understood that Adam is the "symbol" of "natural body" of human, even as He said:

"that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural" cor. 15:47
"The first man is of the earth, earthy" cor. 15:48

Since, it is the human's physical body that due to it's nature of selfishness, forces us to do sin, then it is said that, sin comes from Adam.
Meaning that sin originates from the demands of the physical body. Even as He said:

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed."James 1:15

Since we cannot stop sinning we die.

Jesus said:

"Let the dead bury their own dead" Mat. 8:23

It is clear that by "dead" is not mean the death of our physical body. Therefore He was referring to those whose spirituality was weak as the dead was their spirit, but physically they were alive.

Since, sin, weakens the spirituality, it is therefore said, that sin causes death.

Now, going back to our argument as to the meaning of:

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. "Cor. 15:23

It means that, while the nature of our physical body is the cause of weakening of the spirituality (death), but being obedient and following the teachings of Christ, is the cause of strengthening of spirituality (Life)

Therefore He said:

"it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power" Cor. 15:44

and again He said:

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:20

Meaning that when people disobey the teachings of the Manifestations of God, their spirituality is weakened. Note that, how clearly by “resurrection of dead” is meant "the state of righteousness" not a physical resurrection as generally understood, but a spiritual one!

 

[PolyHedral]

Then the story of Adam has to be a parable, otherwise the legitimacy of Bible would be questioned.

I know I'm kinda intruding here, but I love this reasoning. It's so wonderfully dogmatic, I can't actually imagine someone uttering it seriously, though apparently InvestigateTruth just did.

 

[Faithfreedom]

I do? Would you please tell me where I said that?

"We believe instead that He will actually give them the opportunity to exercise their own free will and to make an informed choice after having been taught the truth in an environment where the cultural climate and political ideologies do not impact their ability to understand."
And if after all that, they still choose to be evil, then what will God do with them?

It appears to me as if you see only two possible options:
1. A God who tortures lost souls in a fiery hell forever.
2. A God who simply does not resurrect some of His children.

I don't believe either of those two options is correct. I'll explain later today as my time is limited right at the moment.

I will be holding my breath.......(turning blue here).....

 

[Faithfreedom]

Since Adam was not literally the first human as science proves otherwise.

How has science proved that Adam was not literally the first human?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

How has science proved that Adam was not literally the first human?

They found evidence that human existed much longer before 6000 years ago. Remains, and other evidences.
If you wish you can research it.

 

[Faithfreedom]

They found evidence that human existed much longer before 6000 years ago. Remains, and other evidences.
If you wish you can research it.

Was the time Adam spent in the Garden of Eden included in the 6000 year count or not?
Maybe the time count only started after he was evicted from Eden.

 

[Katzpur]

"We believe instead that He will actually give them the opportunity to exercise their own free will and to make an informed choice after having been taught the truth in an environment where the cultural climate and political ideologies do not impact their ability to understand."
And if after all that, they still choose to be evil, then what will God do with them?

The righteous (i.e. those who repented of their sins and accepted the gospel of Jesus Christ, either during their mortal lives or during the time they spent in the spirit prison awaiting the resurrection) will rise in the First Resurrection, which will take place at Christ's Second Coming. Those who were so stubborn, so heardhearted, rebellious that they would not repent and who rejected the atonement Jesus Christ, whose sacrifice would have redeemed then had they been willing to accept what He offered them, will remain in the spirit prison for the one thousand year period of His Millennial Reign. Since they refused to accept His gift of forgiveness and redemption, they will be made to pay the price for their own sins. For one thousand years, they will feel the anguish and torment associated with their evil choices, but having endured the punishment they could have prevented by accepting Christ, will be considered to have paid the price for their own sins and will be raised as part of the Second Resurrection. They, too, will then be allowed to enter Heaven. As we are told in Philippians, "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." If the scriptures say that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, we believe that is what they mean. Those who were committed to Jesus Christ from the time they came to know of His gospel will receive greater blessings than those who were not, but done will simply cease to exist. "As in Adam, all die, even so in Christ, shall all be made alive."

I will be holding my breath.......(turning blue here).....

Sorry. Have you ever forgotten a promise to reply to a post? That's what I did.

 

[Katzpur]

They were descended from Adam. That is their crime and their transgression.

Basically, that sounds like it's a sin to be born. Is that what you believe or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[Katzpur]

If Adam was a sinner, and if the sin came to the world, because of Adam, then based on this logic, Abraham, Issac, Joseph and Moses be also sinners? What is the fault of all these innocent people who came after Adam? does it me that "All" are sinners as the verse of the Bible says?
"What was the crime of Noah the Prophet? What was the transgression of Joseph the Truthful? "

I believe we inherited our human nature from Adam. We inherited the propensity or inclination towards sin, but we were not born sinful and God would never punish someone for someone else's sin. We sin as we become capable of understanding the difference between right and wrong, and not before. "As in Adam, all die..." I understand to be referring to our mortality. When Adam was cast out of the Garden, he became subject to death, which was not previously the case. As his descendents we are also subject to death, so as in him, all die. I believe that it is through Jesus Christ that all will be resurrected and become immortal.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

"As in Adam, all die..." I understand to be referring to our mortality. When Adam was cast out of the Garden, he became subject to death, which was not previously the case.

So, are you saying that when Adam was sent to this world from Eden, at that time, were other people already living on earth?

Or, when Adam came, He was the only one on earth?

Because, Adam lived on earth about 6000 years ago and there are evidences that shows, people lived on earth for much longer before him.
I am just not sure what the beliefs are.

So, if the cause of our death is because Adam disobeyed and ate from the Tree in Eden as the Book says.


Then, what about the people who lived and died before Adam? They didn't eat from that Tree, did they? Then why did they die?

 

[St Giordano Bruno]

I very strongly believe the memories of this life are not retained after we die which the decay and destruction of one's brain, so it is subjectively identical to never been born in the first place. So whatever we did, no matter how unspeakable and heinous the act may be, we enter a state of absolute and total amnesia as if we never committed them at all. So why would such a God punish us for a "sin" we cannot remember committing?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I very strongly believe the memories of this life are not retained after we die which the decay and destruction of one's brain, so it is subjectively identical to never been born in the first place. So whatever we did, no matter how unspeakable and heinous the act may be, we enter a state of absolute and total amnesia as if we never committed them at all. So why would such a God punish us for a "sin" we cannot remember committing?

God IS love.
God does not torture someone with memory of crimes committed.

In Scripture there is both 'adverse judgment' and 'righteous judgment'.
The righteous judgment goes hand in hand with everlasting life.
Adverse judgment goes hand in hand with 'second death' or destruction.
So the punishment [ 2nd Thess 1v9] is the opposite of everlasting life but everlasting destruction. That is why Psalm 92v7 mentions everlasting destruction or annihilation.

In death, according to Ecc 9v5,10 no memories are retained good or bad.
[Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; John 11vs11-14; Daniel 12vs2,13]

What Jesus held out for most is everlasting life via a resurrection. -Acts 24v15.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Was the time Adam spent in the Garden of Eden included in the 6000 year count or not?
Maybe the time count only started after he was evicted from Eden.

If Adam was first in Eden, why the Book says, the First Man was from earth?

"The first man is of the earth, earthy" cor. 15:48

 

[InvestigateTruth]

If some human was faithful before Adam we would not suffer the bad consequences of perfect Adam's sin because we would have inherited the human perfection of the faithful obedient one.

So, you are saying that before Adam, some men lived who were not obedient and faithful.

Actually faith comes from teachings of the prophets of God. Are you saying that before Adam, some prophets existed?

Because if those people never had prophets, how were they supposed to be obedient?
If God never sent any prophets to them, then how could God expect them not to do sin? How could they even know what sin is?


and if before Adam, people did sin, then why would God single out Adam and says that we became sinner because He disobeyed?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

They found evidence that human existed much longer before 6000 years ago. Remains, and other evidences.
If you wish you can research it.

Can science with accuracy date the remains of things before the Flood?
Does one really know what effect such a deluge would have on dating things?
What is the oldest dating given on artifacts?

Not exactly science here: but a while back a dead new born was found at the garbage dump. They were saying it was a three month old baby. By tracing the mother because of mail being thrown away with the baby they found out the baby was new born and not two or three months old. So if persons can have trouble dating a new born, just how accurate is dating anything else?
Again, science was not involved [at least I don't think so] but nevertheless how does one really know what some are saying or concluding is really so.

 

[Maimonides]

I believe that guy Vigo who played lucifer in the movie "the prophecy" said it best:

"You know what hell is like thomas? Its not lakes of fire or chains of ice, but being removed from God's sight and having his word taken from you."

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So, you are saying that before Adam, some men lived who were not obedient and faithful.
Actually faith comes from teachings of the prophets of God. Are you saying that before Adam, some prophets existed?
Because if those people never had prophets, how were they supposed to be obedient?
If God never sent any prophets to them, then how could God expect them not to do sin? How could they even know what sin is
and if before Adam, people did sin, then why would God single out Adam and says that we became sinner because He disobeyed?

No human lived before Adam was created.

This would include intelligent life on another planet.

There can not be intelligent life elsewhere because if there was the sin issue would already be settled there and there would be no need to settle it here.

After Jesus thousand-year reign who knows, but for now the issue of obedience to God stems back to Adam.
As 1st Cor 15v45 says: the first man Adam......

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Can science with accuracy date the remains of things before the Flood?

Does one really know what effect such a deluge would have on dating things?
What is the oldest dating given on artifacts?

It is possible that once in a while they make mistake in estimation due to human's error. But there are many evidences, not just one! The likelihood that all of them make mistake is literally zero.

The reason that they made a mistake in estimation is not due to error in techniques. It was due to human error.

For example, the lab might make a mistake in counting someone’s blood cells, due to human’s error. But that doesn't mean that they make a mistake every time.




If Adam was first in Eden, why the Book says, the First Man was from earth?

"The first man is of the earth, earthy" cor. 15:48

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe that guy Vigo who played lucifer in the movie "the prophecy" said it best:
"You know what hell is like thomas? Its not lakes of fire or chains of ice, but being removed from God's sight and having his word taken from you."

There is a difference between: the pagan hell and the Bible hell.

Jesus was in the Bible hell as Acts [2vs27,31] states.

Jesus believed the Bible hell is the stone-cold common grave of mankind where the dead sleep the deep sleep of death until they are awakened on resurrection morning, or resurrected during Jesus millennial-long day of his reigning over earth. -John 11vs11-14


[Psalms 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Ecclesiastes 9v5,10; Daniel 12vs2,13]

 

[URAVIP2ME]

If Adam was first in Eden, why the Book says, the First Man was from earth?
"The first man is of the earth, earthy" cor. 15:48

Right. Adam was from earth or created from he dust of the ground in Eden.
Adam did not originate in heaven. Adam had no pre-human existence.
Eden was located on earth at the crossroads of Tigress and Euphrates rivers.
-Gen 2vs11-14

1Cor15v 45 says the first man Adam was made a living soul.
This is in harmony with Genesis 2v7.
Adam became a living soul.
Please note it does not say Adam came to have a soul or possess a soul.
Rather, after Adam received the breath of life then Adam became a living soul. So at death Adam became a dead or lifeless soul returning to the dust.

Adam was offered everlasting life if obedient.
Adam was Not created immortal or death proof.
Adam's continued life depended on obedience and eating and breathing, etc.