God's conditional love

[Unveiled Artist]

You don't understand. Obviously good and evil exist in this reality. If God just accepted evil into his kingdom, he would have to be evil him self.

Good and evil doesn't exist. However, the biblical god created that division and conditions so people know which group they fall in depending on their relationship with god.

Unconditional Love of god would not see people as evil. So your second sentence would be irrelevant if god were unconditional.

Instead God offers the remedy for evil to everyone who will accept it.

"Who will accept it" is based on a condition. God who loves unconditionally doesn't rely on people's acceptance to give his love-in action not just in speech. He gives remedy for all patients not just those who want a doctor (at least human doctors don't do such a thing. They treat all patients despite if they are aware or want to be treated or not).

God loves everyone enough to die for them and you still don't see that as unconditional love? What more could he do?

He loves "those who believe."

Unconditional love for believers, sure. However, god "says" he loves the world. That makes it either he is conditional (put conditions who who he is evil and who isnt) or contradicting himself (saying he loves all but then only saves those who love him back).

If you love all people, there is no division. (Unconditional love)
If you love those who believe, there is a division. (Conditional love).

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We'll have to agree to disagree.
If you go to a hospital here in the UK on a saturday night, you will see the result of evil .. violence, often exacerbated by excessive alcohol.
..There are plenty of examples of evil ---> rape .. adultery .. murder .. theft .. fraud.

Are you living in "cloud cuckoo land", or something?

I don't use the term evil to define bad behavior. I definitely don't judge and define people's bad behavior as who they are. I see a person who rapes commits and is convicted for her actions not for who she is as a person. Our US law doesn't care about the character of a person or their soul just their behavior and mentality when that illegal behavior had been committed.

"Evil" behavior not evil person. We can hopefully change our behaviors, and when we chose to we benefit. What you're saying is evil people just can't do that because they are evil. An unconditional god doesn't have this view (going by definition).

 

[muhammad_isa]

"Evil" behavior not evil person. We can hopefully change our behaviors, and when we chose to we benefit. What you're saying is evil people just can't do that because they are evil.

That's your mind suggesting that .. not me.
I said "We have to follow righteousness and beware of the evil..
The evil in ourselves, and the evil in others."

I didn't mention anything about an "evil person".
..and you replied "There is no evil in ourselves and others."

Which is absurd. Evil behaviour, or evil in a person .. same thing.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Good and evil doesn't exist. However, the biblical god created that division..

You see? You assert that evil and good don't exist.
That is demonstrable nonsense

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's your mind suggesting that .. not me.
I said "We have to follow righteousness and beware of the evil..
The evil in ourselves, and the evil in others."

I didn't mention anything about an "evil person".
..and you replied "There is no evil in ourselves and others."

Which is absurd. Evil behaviour, or evil in a person .. same thing.

We don't have evil in ourselves. I can't see anyone growing spiritually if they think of themselves as evil.

It's true. There isn't. God if unconditional love wouldn't see evil. People do, though.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You see? You assert that evil and good don't exist.
That is demonstrable nonsense

That's your opinion. The topic is that unconditional love from God doesn't have that division.

Why do you see yourself as evil?

If God loved all and you believe you are evil, God doesn't love evil so he wouldn't love you?

 

[muhammad_isa]

..God doesn't love evil so he wouldn't love you?

That's right .. something that you say doesn't exist [ evil ],
is not loved by God.
Any human being, whatever their religious persuasion, can sincerely repent to God and He will accept it.

..so you see, from THAT perspective, Almighty God loves all.
You are quite right .. He does not like evil.
He does not like people denying the existence of evil.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's right .. something that you say doesn't exist [ evil ],
is not loved by God.
Any human being, whatever their religious persuasion, can sincerely repent to God and He will accept it.

..so you see, from THAT perspective, Almighty God loves all.
You are quite right .. He does not like evil.
He does not like people denying the existence of evil.

My point is that's not unconditional love. Far from it.

 

[AppieB]

Do you (or God) think that you have to be a christian/theist in order to do good like not kill and love another?
In general, yes, I do. Obviously countless atheists love, and are kind and charitable. But their denial of their Maker, implies both a defiance and oblivion within their character that anticipates a wickedness either latent, or previously exposed.

Does God think that atheists are bad people because they don't believe in him?
Yes, of course! For His universe testifies to both His presence and power - life as we know it, and the earth itself, are miracles. Those who chose to deny His existence are not ignorant of His presence, but prefer to not adhere to His injunctions.

I find it kind of sad your religion makes you think like that. This is exactly the poison of certain religions that I find awful and dangerous. It makes an honest and respectful conversation between people of different believes almost impossible and therefore intensifies polarization between groups. Talking about wickedness ...

To anwer your (hypothetical) question (I don't have children): I would care that they follow the rules. Not because of my "authority", but because the rules would be good for them. We all know that children will not always follow the rules. That's not because they are bad people an I wouldn't consider them as inherent bad people. I wouldn't fault them for that.
I would. Anyone who does not do what is good for them is perverse and degenerate - they enjoy the evil.
That's an extreme, but the principle is an axiom. Only rebels prefer to challenge authority and the laws of nature - they constantly indulge in what will potentially harm them - excessive hedonism, vices, gluttony, physical abuse, playing with fire, etc....

Of course you would, because your worldview is based on authority and power instead of empathy, reason and compassion. Children don't do 'wrong' because of some evil mindset. They make mistakes because they are not developed enough to understand all consequenses of their actions. They are children and need to learn and get experience in life. Parents (and other adults) are there to help and teach them.
But I guess if you think it's good that God is a dictator and it's just to punish people for eternity, you might feel the same about parents and their relationship with their children.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Killing is not necessary evil.
People who reject God, reject also the commandment to love others as themselves, which opens the way for all wrong actions like murder, stealing and lying. People who do evil things are evil and I think it is good that God doesn't allow that to continue forever.

Right ^above^ because there is a BIG difference between killing and murder and an execution for the sake of justice.
Execution for the sake of saving/delivering/rescuing the righteous - Matthew 25:37

 

[DNB]

I find it kind of sad your religion makes you think like that. This is exactly the poison of certain religions that I find awful and dangerous. It makes an honest and respectful conversation between people of different believes almost impossible and therefore intensifies polarization between groups. Talking about wickedness ...

Of course you would, because your worldview is based on authority and power instead of empathy, reason and compassion. Children don't do 'wrong' because of some evil mindset. They make mistakes because they are not developed enough to understand all consequenses of their actions. They are children and need to learn and get experience in life. Parents (and other adults) are there to help and teach them.
But I guess if you think it's good that God is a dictator and it's just to punish people for eternity, you might feel the same about parents and their relationship with their children.

Just for the record, I wasn't referring to children of an adolescent age, but just anyone that has either an authority or a dignity above them - elders are to be respected and dignified by the youth. But, a youth who does not honour either the wisdom or presence of an elder, is an insolent and defiant fool.

You asked me a simple question as in, is there something wicked about not believing in God (when he actually exists). I said 'yes', for if He exists that would be axiomatic, and anyone who denies His presence and power behind the universe could only be regarded as a blind and misguided fool. Equal to a child contesting the existence and authority of his parents, irrespective of the age of the child - he cannot defy his parents no matter how old that he gets.

Again, I don't think that atheists are totally depraved or incorrigible, but merely that they reveal a sign of rebellion and contempt within them when they don't acknowledge their Maker.
So, yes, the minute that one tells me that their an atheist, I expect there to be an ignorance, selfishness, or hedonism within their character.
But, not every theist is a saint either, whereas by the same standards that I judge an atheist, they should be.

 

[AppieB]

Just for the record, I wasn't referring to children of an adolescent age, but just anyone that has either an authority or a dignity above them - elders are to be respected and dignified by the youth. But, a youth who does not honour either the wisdom or presence of an elder, is an insolent and defiant fool.

Yes, because your worldview is about authority, commandments and power. Mine is about empathy, reason and compassion. For you it's a matter of hierarchy, for me it's a matter of human equality. There is a fundamental difference and I find yours scary.

You asked me a simple question as in, is there something wicked about not believing in God (when he actually exists). I said 'yes', for if He exists that would be axiomatic, and anyone who denies His presence and power behind the universe could only be regarded as a blind and misguided fool. Equal to a child contesting the existence and authority of his parents, irrespective of the age of the child - he cannot defy his parents no matter how old that he gets.

Again, because to you it's all about authority and power. The realitionship I have with my parents is not about authority. They don't have authority or power over me, nor would they want it. They love and respect me as their child and I love and respect them as my parents.

The problem with your religion is that you depend so much on authority that it's difficult to reason and make choices for yourself. Nor does your religion want you to do, because that comes with the risk of losing your faith. It's about authority and power to keep you in control. Not about reason and freedom.

Again, I don't think that atheists are totally depraved or incorrigible, but merely that they reveal a sign of rebellion and contempt within them when they don't acknowledge their Maker.
So, yes, the minute that one tells me that their an atheist, I expect there to be an ignorance, selfishness, or hedonism within their character.
But, not every theist is a saint either, whereas by the same standards that I judge an atheist, they should be.

Not "totally", but pretty much. This comes with the false notion that atheists choose to be rebellious and not believe. It's not a choice. I'm just not convinced God exists. If he would, he could provide sufficient reason for me to believe, but he doesn't.

 

[DNB]

They love and respect me as their child and I love and respect them as my parents.

Not all children love and respect their parents, what would you think of that person (this is taking way too long, eh)?

This comes with the false notion that atheists choose to be rebellious and not believe. It's not a choice. I'm just not convinced God exists. If he would, he could provide sufficient reason for me to believe, but he doesn't.

He has - life and the universe are inexplicable miracles, that has lead the landslide majority of humans across every culture and historical era, to believe in Him.
You have chosen not to, and I find that contemptuous, ...despite the fact that you claim that you love your parents.

 

[AppieB]

Not all children love and respect their parents, what would you think of that person (this is taking way too long, eh)?

The problem is that your analogy doesn't work. Not loving and repecting the parents isn't the same as not being convinced God exists. And even if it was, that would not be a good reason to punish them for eternity.

He has - life and the universe are inexplicable miracles,

If they are "inexplicable", how do you come to the conclusion it's God? Also you have to demonstrate they are miracles. Just because life and the universe exists, doesn't mean God exists. That just doesn't follow (non-sequitur).

that has lead the landslide majority of humans across every culture and historical era, to believe in Him.

Just because many people believe(d) in God, doesn't mean it's true (argumentum ad populum).
I would also argue that most people don't believe in your God. So by your own flawed reasoning, this argument will not fly.

I don't know why and when you started believing. If you were convinced by good reasons, please give the good reasons. If you were raised and told by an "authority" to believe than I understand why you have poor reasoning skills. It's a bad way to get to knowledge.

You have chosen not to, and I find that contemptuous, ...despite the fact that you claim that you love your parents.

Again the false notion that I chose not to believe. Could you choose not to believe? Or force yourself to believe in Thor? I doubt it. The same is for me about believing in God. It's not a choice. I'm just not convinced. Maybe in the future people will present good reasons. Until then ...

 

[DNB]

The problem is that your analogy doesn't work. Not loving and repecting the parents isn't the same as not being convinced God exists. And even if it was, that would not be a good reason to punish them for eternity.


If they are "inexplicable", how do you come to the conclusion it's God? Also you have to demonstrate they are miracles. Just because life and the universe exists, doesn't mean God exists. That just doesn't follow (non-sequitur).

Just because many people believe(d) in God, doesn't mean it's true (argumentum ad populum).
I would also argue that most people don't believe in your God. So by your own flawed reasoning, this argument will not fly.

I don't know why and when you started believing. If you were convinced by good reasons, please give the good reasons. If you were raised and told by an "authority" to believe than I understand why you have poor reasoning skills. It's a bad way to get to knowledge.


Again the false notion that I chose not to believe. Could you choose not to believe? Or force yourself to believe in Thor? I doubt it. The same is for me about believing in God. It's not a choice. I'm just not convinced. Maybe in the future people will present good reasons. Until then ...

we wouldn't be having this conversation if God did not exist....

 

[AppieB]

we wouldn't be having this conversation if God did not exist....

Again a non-sequitur. If these are the 'best' arguments you have, I won't be convinced.

 

[Spirit of Light]

The problem is that your analogy doesn't work. Not loving and repecting the parents isn't the same as not being convinced God exists. And even if it was, that would not be a good reason to punish them for eternity.


If they are "inexplicable", how do you come to the conclusion it's God? Also you have to demonstrate they are miracles. Just because life and the universe exists, doesn't mean God exists. That just doesn't follow (non-sequitur).

Just because many people believe(d) in God, doesn't mean it's true (argumentum ad populum).
I would also argue that most people don't believe in your God. So by your own flawed reasoning, this argument will not fly.

I don't know why and when you started believing. If you were convinced by good reasons, please give the good reasons. If you were raised and told by an "authority" to believe than I understand why you have poor reasoning skills. It's a bad way to get to knowledge.


Again the false notion that I chose not to believe. Could you choose not to believe? Or force yourself to believe in Thor? I doubt it. The same is for me about believing in God. It's not a choice. I'm just not convinced. Maybe in the future people will present good reasons. Until then ...

You have some good arguments
Proof of God....hmmmm what may be proof to me of a God may not be proof for you. So could i convince you that God truly exist? No I can not.
Only you self may one day be convinced if you saw something or experienced it for yourself. Just because you today have not been convinced, does not make you a lesser human being

 

[DNB]

Again a non-sequitur. If these are the 'best' arguments you have, I won't be convinced.

I don't think that you're grasping the implications of this dialogue, or the significance of all the Churches, Temples, Shrines and Altars built throughout the world. If there is no God, the majority of men who have ever lived are insane. If there is a God, then a large demography of people are depraved. Which option is more viable?

 

[AppieB]

I don't think that you're grasping the implications of this dialogue

I don't think that you're grasping the implications of bad reasoning and fallacy's.

, or the significance of all the Churches, Temples, Shrines and Altars built throughout the world.

Just because buildings are significant to people, doesn't mean what those building represent is true.
You are a christian, right?. Do you think the "significance" of the Masjid al-Haram mosque is evidence for the existence of Allah? Do you think this is a valid argument?

If there is no God, the majority of men who have ever lived are insane. If there is a God, then a large demography of people are depraved. Which option is more viable?

I don't think the "majority of men" were/are insane. I think they are just wrong in their reaons to believe. There was a time the "majority of men" believed the earth was flat. Those people were not insane. They were honestly mistaken.
The "majority of men" don't believe in the christian god. Does this mean the christian god doesn't exist?

 

[DNB]

I don't think that you're grasping the implications of bad reasoning and fallacy's.


Just because buildings are significant to people, doesn't mean what those building represent is true.
You are a christian, right?. Do you think the "significance" of the Masjid al-Haram mosque is evidence for the existence of Allah? Do you think this is a valid argument?


I don't think the "majority of men" were/are insane. I think they are just wrong in their reaons to believe. There was a time the "majority of men" believed the earth was flat. Those people were not insane. They were honestly mistaken.
The "majority of men" don't believe in the christian god. Does this mean the christian god doesn't exist?

...yes, the existence of the Masjid al-Haram mosque in Mecca, signifies what man's being is constituted of.