God's Omniscience versus Free Will

[Tiberius]

Hang on, hang on...

Why do you think that the only two options are an intelligent being controlling things or complete randomness?

 

[FearGod]

Hang on, hang on...

Why do you think that the only two options are an intelligent being controlling things or complete randomness?

So what other options we have,enlighten me.

 

[Tiberius]

There are naturalistic processes that produce well-ordered results.

 

[FearGod]

There are naturalistic processes that produce well-ordered results.

and what factors controlling such processes isn't randomness ,coincedences & chances

 

[Tiberius]

The weather for example. If it was truly random, we'd have no seasons. Yet we do, in a predictable way.

Or when you get a box of cornflakes. All the crumbs are at the bottom. Why? Because any slight jostling of the box will move the cornflakes around, opening up holes. Since little crumbs can fall through any size hole but larger pieces can't, we end up with small crumbs at the bottom with larger flakes on top. This is a non-intelligent process that leads to a highly ordered result.

Natural selection is another one. An animal that has some trait that gives it an advantage is more likely to live longer than an animal without such a trait. hence it will likely have more offspring, who will carry the genes for that advantageous trait, and over several generations the trait is spread throughout the population.

 

[FearGod]

The weather for example. If it was truly random, we'd have no seasons. Yet we do, in a predictable way.

Do you want to say that the naturalistic processes of randomness ,coincedences & chances had developed the well-organized solar system.

Or when you get a box of cornflakes. All the crumbs are at the bottom. Why? Because any slight jostling of the box will move the cornflakes around, opening up holes. Since little crumbs can fall through any size hole but larger pieces can't, we end up with small crumbs at the bottom with larger flakes on top. This is a non-intelligent process that leads to a highly ordered result.

That isn't a good example,because cornflakes didn't enter the box by natural process,human did it,also natural process didn't jostle it,but also human,so the process which is caused by human had lead to what you called highly ordered result.

Natural selection is another one. An animal that has some trait that gives it an advantage is more likely to live longer than an animal without such a trait. hence it will likely have more offspring, who will carry the genes for that advantageous trait, and over several generations the trait is spread throughout the population.

That is irrelevant to our discussion.

 

[PolyHedral]

Do you want to say that the naturalistic processes of randomness ,coincedences & chances had developed the well-organized solar system

Lol. You're forgetting the rest of the laws of physics.

 

[Tiberius]

Do you want to say that the naturalistic processes of randomness ,coincedences & chances had developed the well-organized solar system.

*Sigh* Didn't I just go out of my way to show you that there are natural processes that are NOT random?

That isn't a good example,because cornflakes didn't enter the box by natural process,human did it,also natural process didn't jostle it,but also human,so the process which is caused by human had lead to what you called highly ordered result.

Irrelevant. I'm not talking about how they got into the box, I am talking about how they achieve a very ordered state (small crumbs on the bottom, with pieces getting larger and larger as you go up to the top). One could easily say that this highly ordered state that occurs in every single box couldn't be the result of random chance (and it isn't), and therefore it must be the result of some intelligent agent deliberately sorting the pieces (which is wrong).

In other words, it is an example of how a non-intelligent, non-random process can create a highly ordered result.

That is irrelevant to our discussion.

No it is not. It is another example of how a non-intelligent, non-random process can create a highly ordered result.

Which is exactly what you asked for, isn't it?

 

[FearGod]

*Sigh* Didn't I just go out of my way to show you that there are natural processes that are NOT random?



Irrelevant. I'm not talking about how they got into the box, I am talking about how they achieve a very ordered state (small crumbs on the bottom, with pieces getting larger and larger as you go up to the top). One could easily say that this highly ordered state that occurs in every single box couldn't be the result of random chance (and it isn't), and therefore it must be the result of some intelligent agent deliberately sorting the pieces (which is wrong).

In other words, it is an example of how a non-intelligent, non-random process can create a highly ordered result.



No it is not. It is another example of how a non-intelligent, non-random process can create a highly ordered result.

Which is exactly what you asked for, isn't it?

My friend i believe on something called LOGIC.

your idea about creation is that the unconscious nature did it.

The process achieved by billion of years of trials without any intelligent by randomness , coincedences till we're fixed as we're today and fixed by the unconscious nature.

If we can hardly accept one thing to happen perfectly by randomness,but no we're talking about all things in our universe that are working in a harmony.

 

[Tiberius]

My friend i believe on something called LOGIC.

your idea about creation is that the unconscious nature did it.

The process achieved by billion of years of trials without any intelligent by randomness , coincedences till we're fixed as we're today and fixed by the unconscious nature.

If we can hardly accept one thing to happen perfectly by randomness,but no we're talking about all things in our universe that are working in a harmony.

Why aren't you listening to me?

I have given you several examples of something that is both not intelligent and not random.

NON INTELLIGENT DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN RANDOM!

So stop saying that the universe is a result of random processes. It isn't!

The universe is not the result of only random occurrences.

The universe is also not the result of actions taken by an intelligent being.

 

[FearGod]

Why aren't you listening to me?

I have given you several examples of something that is both not intelligent and not random.

NON INTELLIGENT DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN RANDOM!

So stop saying that the universe is a result of random processes. It isn't!

The universe is not the result of only random occurrences.

The universe is also not the result of actions taken by an intelligent being.

So it isn't by random,it isn't planned for,it isn't by any intelligent being.

Till me the secret,who did it.

Multible things did it by plan or by random.
or one intelligent being did it.
or nothing did it.

i'm listening to you,but not in line with you because you're not showing me a reasonable explanation

 

[PolyHedral]

Till me the secret,who did it.

Noether.

You assume a person where there is none. There is only physics.

 

[FearGod]

Noether.

You assume a person where there is none. There is only physics.

i didn't say a person but an intelligent entity,whereas you assume the unconscious nature regardless of using theories in trying to explain it.

 

[waitasec]

i didn't say a person but an intelligent entity,whereas you assume the unconscious nature regardless of using theories in trying to explain it.

you asked "who did it" not what

 

[Tiberius]

So it isn't by random,it isn't planned for,it isn't by any intelligent being.

Till me the secret,who did it.

Multible things did it by plan or by random.
or one intelligent being did it.
or nothing did it.

i'm listening to you,but not in line with you because you're not showing me a reasonable explanation

Who sorts your cornflakes so the smallest crumbs are always at the bottom of the box?

It can't be random, because how can randomness create such order? Must be the plan of an intelligent entity then.

Congratulations, you just proved that God sorts cornflakes.

 

[FearGod]

Who sorts your cornflakes so the smallest crumbs are always at the bottom of the box?

It can't be random, because how can randomness create such order? Must be the plan of an intelligent entity then.

Congratulations, you just proved that God sorts cornflakes.

Lol, you're comparing the complexity of the universe and creation to the cornflakes which made by man and being jostled by man.

 

[Tiberius]

Fine. Think of a hollow in the ground filled with rocks of varying sizes that have tumbled down the nearby cliff. Then an earthquake shakes it, and they sort.

The point you seem determined to miss is that highly ordered results can come about from non-ordered input.

That is a fact. You can not deny it. And any claim you make that such can't happen with regards to the universe is nothing more than an argument from either your own incredulity or your own ignorance.

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Lol, you're comparing the complexity of the universe and creation to the cornflakes which made by man and being jostled by man.

In what way do you find the universe 'complex'?

 

[FearGod]

Fine. Think of a hollow in the ground filled with rocks of varying sizes that have tumbled down the nearby cliff. Then an earthquake shakes it, and they sort.

The point you seem determined to miss is that highly ordered results can come about from non-ordered input.

That is a fact. You can not deny it. And any claim you make that such can't happen with regards to the universe is nothing more than an argument from either your own incredulity or your own ignorance.

Such silly examples for what you called the highly ordered results makes my faith stronger that god do exist.

 

[Tiberius]

Laugh all you want, the fact remains that order does NOT need an intelligent entity in order to create it.

It can be seen in the ripples the wind makes in the dunes.