FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
You won't of course stop god's plan for this case.
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God's Omniscience versus Free Will
- Thread starter camanintx
- Start date
You won't of course stop god's plan for this case.
Gui10
Active Member
Hope you read what I posted a couple posts behind (last page) Tiberius!
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
if you want to believe that,then whats the problem,you are entitled to your opinion.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
My point is that there are an infinite number of things that could cause John to miss the train. Maybe the truck in front of him spilled its load and the road had to be closed, and Jophn was late arriving at the train station.
Maybe his daughter Claire fell over and hurt her knee, and he decided to stay five more minutes to make her feel better.
Maybe there was a problem with the tracks, so they had to put replacement buses instead of the train, and while John is going to work on the bus, Sally is stuck on the train.
Simple fact is, that if God plans for some things, then he must also plan everything that could potentially interfere with those plans in order to stop that interference from happening.
In short, God must plan EVERYTHING.
Because as long as there is one single unplanned thing, that unplanned thing has the potential to disrupt all that God has planned.
Maybe his daughter Claire fell over and hurt her knee, and he decided to stay five more minutes to make her feel better.
Maybe there was a problem with the tracks, so they had to put replacement buses instead of the train, and while John is going to work on the bus, Sally is stuck on the train.
Simple fact is, that if God plans for some things, then he must also plan everything that could potentially interfere with those plans in order to stop that interference from happening.
In short, God must plan EVERYTHING.
Because as long as there is one single unplanned thing, that unplanned thing has the potential to disrupt all that God has planned.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
God doesn't plan anything in your life,you do plan it.
Say - For God's is the final argument - Had He willed He could indeed have guided all of you. (6:149)
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
God planned for each one of us to live here for the test,every soul will be tested.
how god will test us if he already planned everything in our life,that make no sense.
i don't know from where some believers got such irrational idea that god planned everything in their own life from the date they born,that is farce.
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Gui10
Active Member
Tiberius your not listening to what these people are saying. I think they are saying that God might intervene in your subconscious at certain times if he feels you deviate a little too much. In other words, if god really wanted John to meet his wife or whatever, he would make it so that John would catch the train somehow. If he would not want John to meet his wife, he would have the train leave first...
Whatever thats what I think they are saying, but its non sense.
AND BRO READ WHAT I POSTED ON THE PAGE BEHIND it was directed to you.
Whatever thats what I think they are saying, but its non sense.
AND BRO READ WHAT I POSTED ON THE PAGE BEHIND it was directed to you.
Heathen Hammer
Nope, you're still wrong
Basically what we are seeing is the active cognitive dissonance of someone who does not understand the relationship between the foreknowledge and the choice to be made, or circumstances to be achieved, in order for 'God's plan' to come about. The explanations are bouncing all over the map of whether God has influence or if his plan is actually absent. It changes at the whim of the person explaining based on the example of the moment. There's no sense to it at all.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
In other words, I can do whatever I want, as long as it's what God has planned for me.
I READ IT.
And if God exists (IF, which I do not think he does), then we must all do what he knows we will do, provided God is omniscient. And if that's the case, then we have no free will. Simple as that. Anything I do by my free will can counteract something God has planned.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
You don't seem to understand my point...
If God has planned even the smallest thing, then I can do something as a result of my free will that would prevent it.
Therefore God can not have planned anything, and he isn't omniscient.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
it is 1 of 2,we have a perfect free will or non at all.
a perfect free will can't be true because we don't have a choice once we came to life,should i live as human,should i be a male,should i be a female,you don't have any choice,second thing you can't choose when you would like to die,should i die on 40,70 or if i wish to die after 200 years,i got no choice,so we don't have a perfect free will,that is a fact.
Do you wish to be the richest man in this world,why not,you have the free will to do so,what prevents you to do so,lack of talent or luck.
What is your viewpoint as an atheist?
Gui10
Active Member
Yea thats what I said, I'm an atheist too.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
What you are saying makes no sense. Are you actually saying that since I can't choose to be female that I don't have free will?
Free will is the ability to make decisions that are available to me. My gender is not such an option. Whether I have a ham or peanut butter sandwich is.
Seriously, how hard is this? :areyoucra
camanintx
Well-Known Member
It's not really that complicated. The number on the paper represents information about a choice that I make. If that information (effect) can exist before I make the choice (cause) then either I have don't have free will so I can't choose anything but 3 or there is a paradox because I picked 7 when the paper said 3. Usually a paradox indicates a flaw in the assumptions leading to it. You seem to say as much in the very next post.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
i know that your free will is your ability to choose and make your own decision,so you don't have such option to choose beween male or female,then who chose it for you.
You should think wider to understand what i am saying to you.
Your gender belongs to you,but you don't chose it for yourself.
is it that hard to grasp.
Now let me see your viewpoint about our free will,i am saying to you that we got free will and you don't agree,so what is your point.
Gui10
Active Member
Oh I am with you on the fact that if theres a god he does unevitably controls our lives and therfore there is no free will.
What I was arguing on my first point is the very essence of your example is wrong and you can't exepct to convince any religious people with it.
In your example, you acknowledge the existence of god, in which case he cannot be wrong, so if god did say you were going to say 3, then you will say 3. Your example did not demonstrate free will, it demonstrated that you somehow knew that god wrote 3 on that paper and purposely chose otherwise.
Free will with god can only be described as this: god has never and will never intervene in human affairs. In which case its ridiculous because if god exists he already knows how the world will end or whatever and he already knows whos going to heaven and whos going to hell he might as well just skip to the end right now and tell us why the . we are here.
Tiberius
Well-Known Member
Who says it was chosen at all?
No, I am saying that if (IF) God has a plan, then we can't have free will, because we could use our free will to prevent God's plan.
I do believe we have free will, and I also do not believe there is a god.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
So you believe on coincidences and chances which control everything on this universe.
Our friend Gui10 already advised,we can't agree.
Believers depend on logic and science,we don't rely on the unconscious nature and the undirected coincedences and chances to develope such an amazing universe.
it is easier to me to believe that there was always one god than there was nothing and everything start from nothing.