God's Omniscience versus Free Will

[FearGod]

FearGod,

In one of your earlier posts (#68) you said


Please note that you've put his knowledge in the future tense.

"where it [will] be raining and where there will be drought and so on."
​

This denotes that he knows the future. However, now you say,
From how I understand this, either there's a contradiction here, or god actively controls everything that happens in nature. For instance, he now knows that he is going to make it rain for 18 ¾ minutes on the north side of Chicago on September 21, 2012 at 2:20 PM, and will create a drought that will devastate Niger and Chad in Africa in the summer of 2017. Is this how you see god and the workings of weather?

Knowing future things which i mentioned such as raining or earthquakes...etc has nothing to do with our free will,raining is done by god's plan and he should know future things of his plans.

My decision,is my plan and not god's plan,so he'll not know what i am going to do by tomorrow,because my decision is mine,whereas raining isn't mine.

 

[Skwim]

Knowing future things which i mentioned such as raining or earthquakes...etc has nothing to do with our free will,raining is done by god's plan and he should know future things of his plans.

I take it then that you agree that God knows what he will be doing with the Earth, weather, stars, etc. for every moment of every day into the future. That, in fact, the future of the physical Earth, weather, etc. is all planned out and under his complete and sole control.

Just want to be clear on this. That's all.

tack så mycket.

 

[FearGod]

I take it then that you agree that God knows what he will be doing with the Earth, weather, stars, etc. for every moment of every day into the future. That, in fact, the future of the physical Earth, weather, etc. is all planned out and under his complete and sole control.

Just want to be clear on this. That's all.

tack så mycket.

Exactly,god knows the future of what belong to his plans,physical earth..etc

 

[Tiberius]

God chose mary to be the mother of Jesus (an event),for this case god made his choice for a purpose,and we can never stop god's will.

God wanted an earthquake to strike china,that event will happen and we can never stop it.

We came to life without our choice and we'll leave without our choice,but the way we lived was our choice according to our free will.

For example,if i'll be a drug addict,then that wasn't because god wanted me to be so,but thats merely was my choice.

In your first example, I have a question. If God chose Mary to be the mother of Jesus and nothing could prevent it, what would happen if Jack from the next town tried to kill Mary before she gave birth?

Let's go with your last example...

Would you be able to become a drug addict if God wanted you to be clean?

Would you be able to AVOID being a drug addict if God wanted you to become a drug addict so you could get off and use your story to encourage other drug addicted teenagers to get off drugs?

 

[Heathen Hammer]

Except that His present also encompasses those parts of our timeline where we did not choose. If we have to choose between A and B, then God's present encompasses both when we choose A and when we choose B. This means that if I choose B, then God is still present in a place where I chose A.

The fact that God can see what we didn't choose does not help your assertion ,and actually hurts it because it reinforces what I told you before: he KNOWS WITHOUT ERROR what we choose before we can choose it.

You haven't shown that you aren't free to choose because you haven't shown that foreknowledge equals determination. Even under a traditional view of free will vs God's omnipotence your argument fails. Even more so in the world as I see it.

But I have. Not only did I explain how his knowing accurately what choices makes our choices invalid in terms of free will, it also accents what I said about you mistakenly shoving his awareness back to a human version of foreknowledge. A human who knew the future would not be influencing it, because he cannot change it, nor is that future part of his own design; in God's case you cannot say this, therefore he DOES influence it. As I keep pointing out, his foreknowledge is absolute. His mind is essentially the cement in which the future happens. He cannot be wrong about what path you will choose. Therefore, no free will. His foreknowledge cements that choice into happening.

God's knowledge of my future choice has no influence over the choice. Hence the choice is entirely mine to make. And that He knows about my future choice at all is because He is there to see me making it, even though I'm not there yet.

You are unaware of the influence; but I have shown how it is there.

The analogy some have used is that if God sees you choose 7, then you cannot choose 3. That is incorrect. A more accurate analogy would be God couldn't have seen you choosing 7 if you decide to choose 3.

Hinders your case and helps mine

To be fair, I don't actually believe anything other than God exists. So to an extent you're right. But in this reality where we perceive the existence of things that are not God, I don't think any sufficient argument can be made that foreknowledge eliminates free will.

It might not be effective because you don't want to logically follow it. The implications do not please.

As I've said over and over, it's only a problem if God influences the decision. His knowledge doesn't influence the choice or our ability to choose. His knowledge is informed by the choice. Meaning that He knows because He exists in a place where we have already chosen. And so long as He didn't influence the choosing in any way, the choice was entirely ours.

And I've shown you are incorrect in the assumption that his knowledge does not influence it.
You wish to be free of influence, but you are not.

Add in the other idea that 'everything is God's plan, and you are basically up the river.

 

[FearGod]

In your first example, I have a question. If God chose Mary to be the mother of Jesus and nothing could prevent it, what would happen if Jack from the next town tried to kill Mary before she gave birth?

Let's go with your last example...

Would you be able to become a drug addict if God wanted you to be clean?

Would you be able to AVOID being a drug addict if God wanted you to become a drug addict so you could get off and use your story to encourage other drug addicted teenagers to get off drugs?

God's will overcome ours,exactly like the story of virgin Mary when god planned to bring Jesus to the world through her,no one can stop it(Jack in your example).

In normal life,god has nothing to do with our free will,its our responsibility for the choices and decisions which we take during our life,so god has nothing to do to help the drug addicts because that was their choice,but still god can help if he wanted to,we never underestimate god's power to do whatever he want.

[youtube]5NOuEy-rGzU[/youtube]
Hollywood girl converted to islam - YouTube

 

[Tiberius]

God's will overcome ours,exactly like the story of virgin Mary when god planned to bring Jesus to the world through her,no one can stop it(Jack in your example).

In normal life,god has nothing to do with our free will,its our responsibility for the choices and decisions which we take during our life,so god has nothing to do to help the drug addicts because that was their choice,but still god can help if he wanted to,we never underestimate god's power to do whatever he want.

So, in other words, we can do whatever we please, UNLESS what we please is going to cause, somewhere down the line, part of God's predetermined plan to fail.

For example, let's say the little girl I see walking down the street with her mum will have a child who will have a child who will have a child who is a vital part of God's plan. I can't do anything to stop that little girl I see today from having kids, such as killing her, right?

But given that the smallest action today can have far reaching consequences in even the short term, doesn't that mean that everything must be a part of God's plan and can't be altered?

Here's another example...

I work as a train guard. My train is running late, and I'm trying to get it back on time. Normally, if I see someone running towards the train, I'd wait a few seconds for them, but because I'm late, I'm not waiting for them today. As a result, this man running for the train misses the train. He decides to catch a bus instead, but as he is crossing the road to get to the bus stop, he is hit by a car and killed. Or perhaps he was destined to meet his future wife on that train, but because he missed it, he'll never meet her and fall in love and have kids, which is a shame if one of those kids would have grown up to be the person who brings about world peace.

Now, if that man was part of God's plan, then obviously he can't be killed in a hit and run, right? So therefore it must be a part of God's plan that I wait for the man. It certainly isn't a choice on my part, because I can't do anything else but wait for the man, right? If it was a choice, that would mean I have several options to choose from, but in order for God's plan to be fulfilled, I MUST wait. No choice.

Another example?

I'm at a crowded shopping mall. A man nearby decides to start shooting people, and many are killed. I was in a position to stop this man, as I had just brought a new frying pan and I could have hit him in the head and stopped him from shooting anyone, but I was busy sending a text message to my girlfriend and I didn't see him. Now, if it was God's plan for all those people to die, then it MUST have also been God's plan for me to be distracted with the text message.

See how complicated it gets? SO how can you say that some things are part of God's plan and others aren't when EVERYTHING is connected together?

 

[FearGod]

So, in other words, we can do whatever we please, UNLESS what we please is going to cause, somewhere down the line, part of God's predetermined plan to fail.

For example, let's say the little girl I see walking down the street with her mum will have a child who will have a child who will have a child who is a vital part of God's plan. I can't do anything to stop that little girl I see today from having kids, such as killing her, right?

But given that the smallest action today can have far reaching consequences in even the short term, doesn't that mean that everything must be a part of God's plan and can't be altered?

Here's another example...

I work as a train guard. My train is running late, and I'm trying to get it back on time. Normally, if I see someone running towards the train, I'd wait a few seconds for them, but because I'm late, I'm not waiting for them today. As a result, this man running for the train misses the train. He decides to catch a bus instead, but as he is crossing the road to get to the bus stop, he is hit by a car and killed. Or perhaps he was destined to meet his future wife on that train, but because he missed it, he'll never meet her and fall in love and have kids, which is a shame if one of those kids would have grown up to be the person who brings about world peace.

Now, if that man was part of God's plan, then obviously he can't be killed in a hit and run, right? So therefore it must be a part of God's plan that I wait for the man. It certainly isn't a choice on my part, because I can't do anything else but wait for the man, right? If it was a choice, that would mean I have several options to choose from, but in order for God's plan to be fulfilled, I MUST wait. No choice.

Another example?

I'm at a crowded shopping mall. A man nearby decides to start shooting people, and many are killed. I was in a position to stop this man, as I had just brought a new frying pan and I could have hit him in the head and stopped him from shooting anyone, but I was busy sending a text message to my girlfriend and I didn't see him. Now, if it was God's plan for all those people to die, then it MUST have also been God's plan for me to be distracted with the text message.

See how complicated it gets? SO how can you say that some things are part of God's plan and others aren't when EVERYTHING is connected together?

In the normal life we have our free choice,god don't interfere with our choices.

God asked us for example never to kill an innocent.so if he control the process,then there is no need for god to ask us not to kill.

God asked us not to do bad deeds,so if he planned already for me to do bad deeds,then there was no need for him to ask me for not doing bad deeds...etc.

We have our free will and we are responsible for all our deeds for the day of judgement
,it isn't an excuse that god created me to be bad,according to islam the first verses in the quran was

READ in the name of thy Sustainer, who has created – (96:1)

created man out of a germ-cell! (96:2)

Read – for thy Sustainer is the Most Bountiful One (96:3)

who has taught [man] the use of the pen – (96:4)

taught man what he did not know! (96:5)

So it should be clear that we had to use our minds and thinking ability.

Many christians and muslims misunderstood god's will and they thought that everything in our life is already planned by god before we born which means that we're programmed robots and that is irrational.

 

[Tiberius]

In the normal life we have our free choice,god don't interfere with our choices.

God asked us for example never to kill an innocent.so if he control the process,then there is no need for god to ask us not to kill.

God asked us not to do bad deeds,so if he planned already for me to do bad deeds,then there was no need for him to ask me for not doing bad deeds...etc.

We have our free will and we are responsible for all our deeds for the day of judgement
,it isn't an excuse that god created me to be bad,according to islam the first verses in the quran was

READ in the name of thy Sustainer, who has created – (96:1)

created man out of a germ-cell! (96:2)

Read – for thy Sustainer is the Most Bountiful One (96:3)

who has taught [man] the use of the pen – (96:4)

taught man what he did not know! (96:5)

So it should be clear that we had to use our minds and thinking ability.

Many christians and muslims misunderstood god's will and they thought that everything in our life is already planned by god before we born which means that we're programmed robots and that is irrational.

I fear you are not understanding my point.

You say that we have free will. I am asking what if we choose to do something that means it is impossible for God's plan to come to pass?

If I have a video file on my computer that proves that George is innocent of the crime he has been accused of, and it is God's plan for me to present that video file as evidence in a court of law, is it possible for me to erase that video file ahead of time?

 

[FearGod]

I fear you are not understanding my point.

You say that we have free will. I am asking what if we choose to do something that means it is impossible for God's plan to come to pass?

If I have a video file on my computer that proves that George is innocent of the crime he has been accused of, and it is God's plan for me to present that video file as evidence in a court of law, is it possible for me to erase that video file ahead of time?

i said already that god's will prevail ours.

But for your example about George, god won't interfere on your action not to help George except if god wanted to help him.

Let me put it in this way.

George is innocent and he prayed for god and was so sincere that he cried asking for help from his creator,so now you have a video which proves that George is innocent but you wanted to erase it,god wanted to help George,now God will interfere to keep such evidence to help George,on this case you won't be able to challenge god's will.

this video show one example how god could interfere to change one hard situation if we asked for his help with sincerity.

[youtube]5Gr54pYc3Ak[/youtube]
How I came to Islam - Dr. Laurence Brown | Interfaith Issues - Episode 3 - YouTube

 

[Tiberius]

i said already that god's will prevail ours.

But for your example about George, god won't interfere on your action not to help George except if god wanted to help him.

Let me put it in this way.

George is innocent and he prayed for god and was so sincere that he cried asking for help from his creator,so now you have a video which proves that George is innocent but you wanted to erase it,god wanted to help George,now God will interfere to keep such evidence to help George,on this case you won't be able to challenge god's will.

this video show one example how god could interfere to change one hard situation if we asked for his help with sincerity.

Okay, so basically you are saying that any little thing that can prevent God's plan from coming to fruition, God will intervene to make sure his plan does come true, yes?

 

[FearGod]

Okay, so basically you are saying that any little thing that can prevent God's plan from coming to fruition, God will intervene to make sure his plan does come true, yes?

No,i didn't say so !!

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Christians regularly claim both that God is omniscient and that humans have the free will to choose their actions. I propose a simple thought experiment to explore these claims.

Suppose that you are going to ask me to choose a number between 1 and 10. Since you are a true Christian and God loves you, he tells you ahead of time that I will choose the number 3 so you write it on a piece of paper to prove to me that God exists.

When we meet and you ask me to pick a number between 1 and 10, I use my free will to choose the number 7. When you produce the piece of paper, what number is written on it?

God know action before it happens?

God will know that you will chnage your mind and choose 7.

sorry for delaying , the answer is 3.

 

[Tiberius]

No,i didn't say so !!

So then I can do something that will make it impossible for God's plan to happen?

 

[FearGod]

So then I can do something that will make it impossible for God's plan to happen?

neither,i did say that.
Pls read my previous posts thoroughly to understand my viewpoint.

 

[Tiberius]

Well, you aren't saying much of anything, are you?

Let's try this again...

I am a train guard. John is running for the train. It is God's plan that John get on the train and meet his future wife Sally. If he doesn't get on this train, he will never meet her. However, the train is running late. I decide to close the doors and get the train moving, even though this means that John will miss the train and he will never meet sally as per God's plans.

Am I able to close the doors and get the train moving (thus violating God's plan) or not?

 

[FearGod]

Well, you aren't saying much of anything, are you?

Let's try this again...

I am a train guard. John is running for the train. It is God's plan that John get on the train and meet his future wife Sally. If he doesn't get on this train, he will never meet her. However, the train is running late. I decide to close the doors and get the train moving, even though this means that John will miss the train and he will never meet sally as per God's plans.

Am I able to close the doors and get the train moving (thus violating God's plan) or not?

Once again,normaly god doesn't intervene with our life,we choose our future wife and not him,but if god have a purpose that John should meet and marry Sally,then god's plan will be achieved at this specific case,so John will arrive earlier to catch up the train on time.

 

[Tiberius]

Once again,normaly god doesn't intervene with our life,we choose our future wife and not him,but if god have a purpose that John should meet and marry Sally,then god's plan will be achieved at this specific case,so John will arrive earlier to catch up the train on time.

Will I be able to do anything to prevent John from catching the train?

 

[Gui10]

Christians regularly claim both that God is omniscient and that humans have the free will to choose their actions. I propose a simple thought experiment to explore these claims.

Suppose that you are going to ask me to choose a number between 1 and 10. Since you are a true Christian and God loves you, he tells you ahead of time that I will choose the number 3 so you write it on a piece of paper to prove to me that God exists.

When we meet and you ask me to pick a number between 1 and 10, I use my free will to choose the number 7. When you produce the piece of paper, what number is written on it?

That doesnt make any sense, i dont know what your trying to prove but if god knows ahead of time that you will pick the number 3, you will pick 3, unless you know that god told the kid 3 and then your like ''oh dam i was going to say 3 but ill say something different'' which in that case is totally different from what your saying.

 

[Gui10]

Well, you aren't saying much of anything, are you?

Let's try this again...

I am a train guard. John is running for the train. It is God's plan that John get on the train and meet his future wife Sally. If he doesn't get on this train, he will never meet her. However, the train is running late. I decide to close the doors and get the train moving, even though this means that John will miss the train and he will never meet sally as per God's plans.

Am I able to close the doors and get the train moving (thus violating God's plan) or not?

You have the tottaly wrong approach man. The thing you dont understand is this: If you ackowledge the existence of god (which you do by your example) then no one can go against gods plan because he knows everything.

Gods omniscience and free will cannot co-exist because if god knows everything it means the futur is predictable (by himself only) and if the futur is predictable well it means its not changeble...see where im going.

So in conclusion i agree with you on the atheist perspective i guess, but the example you give to try and defeat believers is wrong.