God's opposition to homosexuality. Why?

[tarekabdo12]

Hate to break this to you...but homosexuality has been around longer than the internet.

It was but in a very localized way and the internet served to spreadit further in a vast pattern.

 

[tarekabdo12]

I have a few problems with your post here:

1) if God/Allah created everyone and has a role in our lives why would he create homosexuals? The amount of negativity they must endure is surely not part of God's plan?

2) How is a sexual preference a disease? I think you may be using the wrong word to describe homosexuality.

3) You call homosexuality an addiction? How come modern science disagrees wih your assertations? Before 1985 homosexuality was cureable.... that was 26 years ago though.

4) Have you ever considered that your God and his morality is wrong and/or inappropriate for the modern world? Lets face it, religious texts aren't exactly "up to date" with current discoveries and as hard as scholars try to twist the meaning of these texts, they're rather ambiguous at best.

1- God didn't create homosexuals, God created people and gave them the ability to choose and they chose to be homosexuals.
2-3 sure it's a disease, if it was not a disease so why is homosexuality flourishing in the western community and not in the eastern one. Sure the genetic susceptibility will reach both sides.Even if there was genetic susceptibility so you can see that those susceptible individuals are living a great homosexual life without a problem so genetically susceptible individuals are perfect heterosexuals in the western community but not in the eastern side.
4- explain, these are mere assumptions

 

[tarekabdo12]

Your blatant attempt to divert from the fact that your bold faced lie was pointed out is most comical.

Thanks for the laugh.

Using the exact provocative behavior with all your opponents and even the same words....it appears that this is your nature and I simply don't enjoy arguing with a person like you. By time, you learn that some people don't deserve to waste your time with as they have no meaning or value but they are just present to make the world worse.

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

I really don't know why you are advocating homosexual behaviour, are you homosexuals or what? It's clear that you are not advocating this pattern because it's a great one. There must be hidden aims, but I would like to tell you that if you follow the truth you'll be happier.

This post speaks volumes about how seriously we should really take this guy, and for my part, I won't be responding to anything else he says.

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

The Torah, as dictated by God directly to Moses on Mount Sinai (not through Divine inspiration as the Prophets or other holy books were) explicitly states in Leviticus, Chapter 18, Verse 22, "You shall not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, it is an abomination." And in Leviticus, Chapter 20, Verse 13 says, "A man who lies with a man as one lies with a woman, they have both done an abomination." (I won't go on with the rest of the verse). You're religion is described as Christianity. So you believe in the Divine origin of the "Old" Testament, I'm assuming. These are God's own words! GOD said that having anal sex between two men in an "abomination." Now who knows best? We little, pesky humans who technically have no control over our lives, because God can remove us from this world anytime He sees fit, or the Almighty and Everlasting God, Creator and Sustainer of the entire Universe!? I think the latter.

I am very surprised to see a person who identifies as an Orthodox Jew approach these verses this way, rather then trying to delve deeper into what they actually mean. Haven't many Rabbis said that those verses probably aren't about homosexuality in general?

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

Apparently because homosexual acts are somehow damaging to our spiritual progress . . .

(This is the reason for many prohibitions, please note!)

Peace,

Bruce

Spoken like a true follower of Shoghi. (Baha'ullah never said one word about homosexuality)

 

[Yanni]

I am very surprised to see a person who identifies as an Orthodox Jew approach these verses this way, rather then trying to delve deeper into what they actually mean. Haven't many Rabbis said that those verses probably aren't about homosexuality in general?

There is a literal meaning and a deeper meaning to every verse. If I look at an apple, I know that it's an apple. A table is a table, a chair is a chair, a phone is a phone, etc. The verses I mentioned are quite clear, in their literal sense, that two men having anal sex is forbidden. And I have not so far learned by any Rabbi (and I presently learn in Yeshiva, so I'm involved with studying Torah every day) that this verse has a deeper meaning. The only deeper meaning I know of is that from the verse alone, it is not apparent that only anal sex is forbidden; perhaps it meant (in its literal sense) that even sleeping in a bed together is forbidden. The deeper meaning (as expounded by the Oral Law given to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai) is that only the act of anal sex is forbidden.

 

[Many Sages One Truth]

There is a literal meaning and a deeper meaning to every verse. If I look at an apple, I know that it's an apple. A table is a table, a chair is a chair, a phone is a phone, etc. The verses I mentioned are quite clear, in their literal sense, that two men having anal sex is forbidden. And I have not so far learned by any Rabbi (and I presently learn in Yeshiva, so I'm involved with studying Torah every day) that this verse has a deeper meaning. The only deeper meaning I know of is that from the verse alone, it is not apparent that only anal sex is forbidden; perhaps it meant (in its literal sense) that even sleeping in a bed together is forbidden. The deeper meaning (as expounded by the Oral Law given to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai) is that only the act of anal sex is forbidden.

Really? Because I've seen some Rabbis, such as David Wolpe, say that those verses were one of the laws that was only for the nation back then, and not today. I've seen others say that it's a prohibition against homosexual acts in the context of Paganism- obscure Pagan rites involving homosexual rituals.

Would you like to offer your thoughts on these opinions, and why you see the need to take the verse at face value? I mean obviously if a person is a Jew and is also gay that creates a very big problem hard for them to reconcile with their faith. Why would god want a Jew to suffer that way?

 

[Yanni]

Your blatant attempt to divert from the fact that your bold faced lie was pointed out is most comical.

Thanks for the laugh.

What bold faced lie are you talking about?
Oh, and I have something for you. In the seventeenth century, when Blaise Pascal, the great French philosopher, was asked by Louis XIV for proof of the supernatural, he answered, "The Jewish People, Your Majesty." Why? Because he realized that the survival of the Jewish people up to the seventeenth century violated all the laws of history. Can you imagine what he'd say if he knew that the Jews have made it to the twenty-first century? Face it: Jewish history is a supernatural phenomenon.
And besides Pascal, there were many scholars and well-known personalities who have taken note that Jewish history is in fact unique and that it violates all the laws of history. This is what the Russian philosepher Nikolai Berdyaev said, "The Jews' destiny is too imbued with the "metaphysical" to be explained either by material or positive historical means...Their survival is a mysterious and wonderful phenomenon, demonstrating that the life of this people is governed by special predetermination...The survival of the Jews, their resistance to destruction, their endurance under absolutely peculiar conditions and the fateful role played by them in history; all these point to the particular and mysterious foundations of their destiny..." (Berdyaev, Nikolaid, The Meaning of History, London: World, 1935, pp.86-87).
The Jewish people came into being miraculously and survived all of human history miraculously, outlasting even the greatest empires. Things have happened to the Jews that haven't happened to other peoples. This is so because the Jewish people is a nation with a unique mission, a nation with a unique history, and a nation whose role is so essential that it cannot be allowed to disappear.
In fact, I'll even provide the verse in the Torah that predetermines our continued survival: "But despite all this, while they will be in the land of their enemies, I will not have been revolted by them nor will I have rejected them to obliterate them, to annul My covenant with them - for I am HaShem, their God. I will remember for them the covenant of the ancients, those whom I have taken out of the land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations, to be God onto them - I am HaShem." (Leviticus, Chapter 26, Verse 44-45).
Now tell me: If the Bible was written by men, how the heck would they know that if they made a prediction it would actually come true? What basis to they have for ensuring that it comes true? The only answer is that there is a supernatural Being that is holding to His promise. And if you believe that humans came to being through evolution, then what about the notion that "the strong defeats the weak?" If this world is founded entirely by chance, then the Jews should have ceded to exist thousands of years ago.

 

[Yanni]

Really? Because I've seen some Rabbis, such as David Wolpe, say that those verses were one of the laws that was only for the nation back then, and not today. I've seen others say that it's a prohibition against homosexual acts in the context of Paganism- obscure Pagan rites involving homosexual rituals.

Would you like to offer your thoughts on these opinions, and why you see the need to take the verse at face value? I mean obviously if a person is a Jew and is also gay that creates a very big problem hard for them to reconcile with their faith. Why would god want a Jew to suffer that way?

David Wolpe is aligned with the conservative movement, and therefore has very different and disturbing views (such as questioning whether the Exodus actually happened, which is the very foundation of our nationhood). In that case, whatever David Wolpe says is contrary to the basic foundations of our faith and tradition for more than 3,000 years (dating all the way back to Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, and Mount Sinai). The laws of the Torah are eternal. The Torah itself says that the laws of the Torah can never be added to or subtracted from: Deuteronomy, Chapter 13, Verse 1: "The entire word that I command you, that shall you observe to do; you shall not add to it and you shall not subtract from it."
But you may ask me, "What about all the laws that have penalties or other laws that aren't followed today, like the offerings," etc. Well, because we don't have a Temple today, we are not allowed to bring offerings (that was only allowed inside the Temple). And there are laws containing penalties, yes. But those penalties cannot be carried out unless there is an independent, Torah government in the Land of Israel, which will not happen until the Messiah reveals himself to the world and brings about the Messianic Era, in which the entire world will recognize the existence of the Creator and ALL nations will be united in serving the One God. (Just a side point, I've said numerous times that Judaism is a unique religion in that we don't expect everyone who wants to be "saved" to convert to Judaism. The Torah is a truth for all humanity. The other nations of the world have the 7 Noahide Laws to abide by; that is enough for them. We, on the other hand, have 613 commandments; I'm sure 7 will do just fine for non-Jews). And once the Messiah comes, the Temple will be rebuilt, and it will become a house of prayer for ALL nations. And all the "strange" laws of the Torah (like the ban against homosexuality) will be explained to the world, and we will understand WHY God prohibited it and WHY that prohibition was good for us.
And no, God doesn't want anyone to suffer. But Judaism's view of the homosexual urge is that God wants to give His creations the ultimate good, which awaits us after we die (whatever it may be). This world is like a corridor that opens to a large banquet hall. But in this banquet hall, you need a ticket to get in. God appointed Satan as the angel who is the "mastermind tester." (No, Judaism does not believe Satan is a fallen angel, because our doctrine is that angels do not have free will). Through Satan's test (in which he may present desires and challenges that may seem good to us but are really evil and do us spiritual hard if we give in), which even Satan wants us to overcome, we accumulate merits that add up to eternal reward. Some people are born with more estrogen than other men, and therefore have more female-like tendencies, and find an attraction to other men. One of their special tests in life is to overcome that "natural" urge towards homosexuality and live a life of heterosexuality instead (because the very first commandment in the Torah is to procreate, or at least attempt to procreate for those who are stricken with infertility). Of course this may be very difficult for such people, but one of the fundamental beliefs of Orthodox Judaism is that according to the difficulty is the reward. The more difficult it is to sacrifice one's own personal wants, desires, and agendas for the Creator's Will, to more favorable that person is in God's eyes.
And regarding your comment about paganism, the chapter that homosexuality is in is directed to the Jewish people and is directed to the entire human race in the Noahide Law on sexual immorality.

 

[waitasec]

back to topic...
why?

 

[Duck]

1- God didn't create homosexuals, God created people and gave them the ability to choose and they chose to be homosexuals.
2-3 sure it's a disease, if it was not a disease so why is homosexuality flourishing in the western community and not in the eastern one. Sure the genetic susceptibility will reach both sides.Even if there was genetic susceptibility so you can see that those susceptible individuals are living a great homosexual life without a problem so genetically susceptible individuals are perfect heterosexuals in the western community but not in the eastern side.
4- explain, these are mere assumptions

Because the barbarians that run those countries execute anyone they suspect of being homosexuals?

 

[waitasec]

1- God didn't create homosexuals, God created people and gave them the ability to choose and they chose to be homosexuals.

ah ha now i get it... are you bi sexual? did you chose to live as hetero

2-3 sure it's a disease, if it was not a disease so why is homosexuality flourishing in the western community and not in the eastern one. Sure the genetic susceptibility will reach both sides.Even if there was genetic susceptibility so you can see that those susceptible individuals are living a great homosexual life without a problem so genetically susceptible individuals are perfect heterosexuals in the western community but not in the eastern side.

The Kingdom in the Closet - Magazine - The Atlantic
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/06/15/underground_and_in_the_closet

 

[McBell]

Using the exact provocative behavior with all your opponents and even the same words....it appears that this is your nature and I simply don't enjoy arguing with a person like you. By time, you learn that some people don't deserve to waste your time with as they have no meaning or value but they are just present to make the world worse.

Yes, most fanatics run tail tucked when dealing with people who do not meet their preconceived notions of sugar coating.

 

[McBell]

What bold faced lie are you talking about?

This one:

[SIZE=+1]Nobody Disagrees With "The Argument from Design"[/SIZE]

Oh, and I have something for you. In the seventeenth century, when Blaise Pascal, the great French philosopher, was asked by Louis XIV for proof of the supernatural, he answered, "The Jewish People, Your Majesty." Why? Because he realized that the survival of the Jewish people up to the seventeenth century violated all the laws of history. Can you imagine what he'd say if he knew that the Jews have made it to the twenty-first century? Face it: Jewish history is a supernatural phenomenon.
And besides Pascal, there were many scholars and well-known personalities who have taken note that Jewish history is in fact unique and that it violates all the laws of history. This is what the Russian philosepher Nikolai Berdyaev said, "The Jews' destiny is too imbued with the "metaphysical" to be explained either by material or positive historical means...Their survival is a mysterious and wonderful phenomenon, demonstrating that the life of this people is governed by special predetermination...The survival of the Jews, their resistance to destruction, their endurance under absolutely peculiar conditions and the fateful role played by them in history; all these point to the particular and mysterious foundations of their destiny..." (Berdyaev, Nikolaid, The Meaning of History, London: World, 1935, pp.86-87).
The Jewish people came into being miraculously and survived all of human history miraculously, outlasting even the greatest empires. Things have happened to the Jews that haven't happened to other peoples. This is so because the Jewish people is a nation with a unique mission, a nation with a unique history, and a nation whose role is so essential that it cannot be allowed to disappear.
In fact, I'll even provide the verse in the Torah that predetermines our continued survival: "But despite all this, while they will be in the land of their enemies, I will not have been revolted by them nor will I have rejected them to obliterate them, to annul My covenant with them - for I am HaShem, their God. I will remember for them the covenant of the ancients, those whom I have taken out of the land of Egypt before the eyes of the nations, to be God onto them - I am HaShem." (Leviticus, Chapter 26, Verse 44-45).
Now tell me: If the Bible was written by men, how the heck would they know that if they made a prediction it would actually come true? What basis to they have for ensuring that it comes true? The only answer is that there is a supernatural Being that is holding to His promise. And if you believe that humans came to being through evolution, then what about the notion that "the strong defeats the weak?" If this world is founded entirely by chance, then the Jews should have ceded to exist thousands of years ago.

Apeeals to authority and appeals to self fulfilling prophecy are not impressive to those outside your choir.

 

[McBell]

back to topic...
why?

I have yet to see any thing but pure speculation as to the why.

 

[Yanni]

This one.

I think that statement was not made with enough knowledge of the subject matter; it wasn't in any way meant as a "bold faced" lie. And, that wasn't my statement; it belongs to someone else (as quoted after I forgot to put in the source).

 

[McBell]

I think that statement was not made with enough knowledge of the subject matter; it wasn't in any way meant as a "bold faced" lie. And, that wasn't my statement; it belongs to someone else (as quoted after I forgot to put in the source).

Your back peddling is duly noted.

 

[tarekabdo12]

Yes, most fanatics run tail tucked when dealing with people who do not meet their preconceived notions of sugar coating.

there's a vast difference between having a contradicting view-which can be accepted- and being impolite and deriding others.

 

[tarekabdo12]

Because the barbarians that run those countries execute anyone they suspect of being homosexuals?

Nobody is executed and Egyptians are very intelligent if just meet them, this is proved by their previous accomplishments. In addition, you don't know about my people more than me. I meet millions of them and all the people I've met are married or like to marry a great partner of other sex and think homosexuality is disgusting. It appears that you don't even bother yourselves to know about others' views and life. That's want makes in fact a phantom from me that homosexuality is a genetic matter. You can see that people previously along hundreds of decades lived their lives without having this great spread of homosexual behavior and they were perfect as heterosexuals and didn't even consider homosexuality. Moreover, the cultures which are not affected by this ideas lived in a prefect and nearly total heterosexual behavior and none of them has a desire towards homosexuality but they think it's despicable. Even if they was a genetic susceptibility, if you consider smoking it leads to severe effects on the human health ,yet not all people are affected in the same pattern but still smoking is considered as a disease inducing substance. Everything in the world exhibits susceptibility but we can't exclude it from being a derangement of the normal.