Good "Islam = Religion of Peace" Debate

[YmirGF]

What is your source of this information as we know none of us were there to verify it so one either listens to the Muslims version or those who believe Islam is false?

My source is Baha'u'llah Whom I recognise as the Promised One foretold in all the Holy Books.

Now if He is that Holy One then His version is right. People can accept whichever version suits their bias but the real truth can only be verified by another Messenger of God Who has infallible knowledge on the matter.

If people don't believe in a God Who sends Prophets with infallible knowledge then you cannot claim your version of 1400 years ago to be absolutely correct as there is no way for you to or anyone to verify it and historians only give their version not necessarily the truth or accurate account so how can you be so sure when you weren't an eye witness and I know many famous western writers throughout the centuries have openly been biased against Muhammad and written derogatory things which from my source are completely false

As I said, for me I can be sure because I rest my case on Baha'u'llah.

I'll post some things He said about Muhammad later.

I'm reading the same old stories that everyone else is. My guess is that you have been fooled by the whitewashing of the fanatical Muslim accounts of this era.
You know as well as I do that he lived in Mecca for 10 years after his "prophethood" thingy occurred. He preached relentlessly and stridently from almost day one about the fate of those who disbelieve what he told them. That the people of Mecca tolerated his nonsense for as long as they did says much about a relatively primitive pagan people. Read the stories without your rose-tinted glasses and a far different vision appears. Put yourself in the place of those around him, who wandered by him, day after day. Read between the lines.

As far as I am concerned the only reasons that Baha'u'llah spoke so glowingly about Muhammad was because it buttressed his own claims of prophethood and had he not spoken so highly of him he was signing his own death warrant, as the Muslims around Baha'u'llah weren't especially interested in his views of reality. Heck, even with all the praise they still locked him away in their wonderful prisons and hounded him throughout his life - and ended up killing him anyway.

 

[YmirGF]

Yes you are our fellow human beings why shouldn't you be included? We are no better than you. We are imperfect and have much to learn from others.

Of course your opinions matter. Why not? We are just ordinary people and not superior in the least to anyone believer or not.

You may be much better than us. There is good in all.

Well, if the Bahai's ever become more than an oddball sect with few followers I might just stop and pay attention. Given that you folks have been around this long and accomplished so little I shall not hold my breath.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Well, if the Bahai's ever become more than an oddball sect with few followers I might just stop and pay attention. Given that you folks have been around this long and accomplished so little I shall not hold my breath.

I'm happy with that. At least you have an open mind. Thank you.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm reading the same old stories that everyone else is. My guess is that you have been fooled by the whitewashing of the fanatical Muslim accounts of this era.
You know as well as I do that he lived in Mecca for 10 years after his "prophethood" thingy occurred. He preached relentlessly and stridently from almost day one about the fate of those who disbelieve what he told them. That the people of Mecca tolerated his nonsense for as long as they did says much about a relatively primitive pagan people. Read the stories without your rose-tinted glasses and a far different vision appears. Put yourself in the place of those around him, who wandered by him, day after day. Read between the lines.

As far as I am concerned the only reasons that Baha'u'llah spoke so glowingly about Muhammad was because it buttressed his own claims of prophethood and had he not spoken so highly of him he was signing his own death warrant, as the Muslims around Baha'u'llah weren't especially interested in his views of reality. Heck, even with all the praise they still locked him away in their wonderful prisons and hounded him throughout his life - and ended up killing him anyway.

We both have different sources but what are your sources of information based on? Because people write both good and bad things about Islam so why believe the negative one? Why is the negative view more true than the good accounts of Muhammad"s Life.

If your source is non Muslim then they may be biased. If your source is Muslim they may be biased too.

So I say, my source is an independent source. Baha'u'llah meets the requirements for unbiased information based on Him being a Messenger of God.

 

[YmirGF]

We both have different sources but what are your sources of information based on? Because people write both good and bad things about Islam so why believe the negative one? Why is the negative view more true than the good accounts of Muhammad"s Life.

If your source is non Muslim then they may be biased. If your source is Muslim they may be biased too.

So I say, my source is an independent source. Baha'u'llah meets the requirements for unbiased information based on Him being a Messenger of God.

I'm going with exclusively Muslim sources gleaned over a decade of reading. I don't bother with the anti-Islam crew, as a rule. Forgive me, but it would never even occur to me to take Baha'u'llah's word on this topic. I do not consider him to be a prophet let alone a God's mouthpiece. All that aside though, what else could Baha'u'llah have possibly said? He would have been killed by eager Muslims long before they ended up killing him. His views, therefore, are irrelevant as they are coerced, given that it would have been unthinkable to mention god in his era and society without mentioning Muhammad and Islam. That Baha'u'llah's followers swallow what he said is decidedly unimpressive - especially while ignoring the mitigating circumstances.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm going with exclusively Muslim sources gleaned over a decade of reading. I don't bother with the anti-Islam crew, as a rule. Forgive me, but it would never even occur to me to take Baha'u'llah's word on this topic. I do not consider him to be a prophet let alone a God's mouthpiece. All that aside though, what else could Baha'u'llah have possibly said? He would have been killed by eager Muslims long before they ended up killing him. His views, therefore, are irrelevant as they are coerced, given that it would have been unthinkable to mention god in his era and society without mentioning Muhammad and Islam. That Baha'u'llah's followers swallow what he said is decidedly unimpressive - especially while ignoring the mitigating circumstances.

That condition is not there now. Baha'is all over the world are free to practise their So why support and uphold Muhammad now in these days if it was just done for personal preservation?

We stand up for the Quran and Muhammad because we know it is truth and comes from God.

 

[LuisDantas]

That condition is not there now. Baha'is all over the world are free to practise their So why support and uphold Muhammad now in these days if it was just done for personal preservation?

To the best of my understanding, because you are much too in love with your claim that you are inheritors of "all major" religions, much as Islam insists that it is the true, faithful maintainer of the Jewish and Christian traditions.

You are simply not well awakened to the need to question that claim. And if you did, there would be a significant matter of deciding what to keep from your own writings and doctrine.

For good or worse, that is simply not how you work.

We stand up for the Quran and Muhammad because we know it is truth and comes from God.

And so you undermine yourselves.

 

[loverofhumanity]

To the best of my understanding, because you are much too in love with your claim that you are inheritors of "all major" religions, much as Islam insists that it is the true, faithful maintainer of the Jewish and Christian traditions.

You are simply not well awakened to the need to question that claim. And if you did, there would be a significant matter of deciding what to keep from your own writings and doctrine.

For good or worse, that is simply not how you work.


And so you undermine yourselves.

I think about it in a slightly different manner.

I'm personally in love with trying to make the oneness of mankind and world peace, a reality. What good would it do if all 7 billion people were to convert to the Baha'i Faith in name only? The world would remain the same.

For us it is about the well being of all humanity,
the refugees, the poor, stopping violence and rape and drug addiction and wars etc and founding a civilisation based on equality and fairness and human rights for all and that would likely have universal health care, universal employment, universal education and the possibility for everyone to reach his potential as a human being and to become a world where we can all get along not the exaltation of the Baha'i Faith.

The exaltation of the Baha'i Faith is not even part of the equation, we are just a tool, an instrument, a channel, a catalyst through which hopefully we can help bring about the founding of such a world. It is all about the world and its peoples not the exaltation of the Baha'i Faith.

I don't know where you got that impression from but that is far from what we are all about.

 

[YmirGF]

We stand up for the Quran and Muhammad because we know it is truth and comes from God.

That bold claim undermines your own theology and the status of Baha'u'llah. If you genuinely believed this you would adopt Islam and become Muslims. I would suggest that this is a major reason why no one in particular takes the Baha'i Faith terribly seriously.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That bold claim undermines your own theology and the status of Baha'u'llah. If you genuinely believed this you would adopt Islam and become Muslims. I would suggest that this is a major reason why no one in particular takes the Baha'i Faith terribly seriously.

Baha'is believe that the Promised One foretold in the scriptures of all the major Faiths has come and is Baha'u'llah so we turn to His Laws and Teachings as they were specifically meant for this time.

Baha'u'llah also is the first Manifestation to bring a Divine Administration and we follow that administration.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Baha'is believe that the Promised One foretold in the scriptures of all the major Faiths has come and is Baha'u'llah so we turn to His Laws and Teachings as they were specifically meant for this time.

Baha'u'llah also is the first Manifestation to bring a Divine Administration and we follow that administration.

What do you mean by a Divine Administration here?

 

[loverofhumanity]

What do you mean by a Divine Administration here?

Very good question. Baha'u'llah brought a Divine Administration.

Humanity thus far has never had a Divine Administration from God. We have the Papacy and there was the Caliphate but they were not entirely revealed by God.

Baha'u'llah in His Writings, abolished priesthood and replaced it with elected 'Houses of Justice'.

So we have The Universal House of Justice whose Seat is established on the slopes of Mount Carmel in Haifa, Israel.

The Universal House of Justice is unique in religious history.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baha'i_arc_from_archives.jpg#mw-jump-to-license

The building with the dome is the Seat of the Universal House of Justice.

 

[icehorse]

Thank you for your questions. Firstly contention and strife is forbidden by law in Bahaullah's Most Holy Book..

"He that wisheth to promote the Cause of the one true God, let him promote it through his pen and tongue, rather than have recourse to sword or violence."

"It is incumbent upon all men, each according to his ability, to refute the arguments of those that have attacked the Faith of God."

“Ye have been forbidden in the Book of God to engage in contention and conflict, to strike another, or to commit similar acts whereby hearts and souls may be saddened.”

Excerpt From: Bahá'u'lláh. “The Kitab-i-Aqdas.”

"The religion of God is for love and unity; make it not the cause of enmity or dissension."

And so so.

My question is this: How did you know which verses to use and which to ignore?

 

[loverofhumanity]

And so so.

My question is this: How did you know which verses to use and which to ignore?

Icehouse I'm not understanding what your question is in relation to. Could you please clarify?

The Baha'i Writings are like a university. There is an authoritative answer for just about any question a person can ask. Often there are multiple answers about one topic. Is that what you meant?

 

[YmirGF]

Icehouse I'm not understanding what your question is in relation to. Could you please clarify?

The Baha'i Writings are like a university. There is an authoritative answer for just about any question a person can ask. Often there are multiple answers about one topic. Is that what you meant?

I'm confident that @icehorse is meaning Muslim texts.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I'm confident that @icehorse is meaning Muslim texts.

Thanks I'll try again. I really appreciate your help.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And so so.

My question is this: How did you know which verses to use and which to ignore?

We believe in Progressive Revelation.

That new Teachers appear to bring us laws and teachings relevant for the age in which we live in.

We follow the new laws and Teachings brought by Baha'u'llah but we see all religions as one process.

The essence of all religions is one. But the social laws are continually changed according to the needs of the age.

"This is the changeless Faith of God, eternal in the past, eternal in the future."

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Very good question. Baha'u'llah brought a Divine Administration.

Humanity thus far has never had a Divine Administration from God. We have the Papacy and there was the Caliphate but they were not entirely revealed by God.

Baha'u'llah in His Writings, abolished priesthood and replaced it with elected 'Houses of Justice'.

So we have The Universal House of Justice whose Seat is established on the slopes of Mount Carmel in Haifa, Israel.

The Universal House of Justice is unique in religious history.

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baha'i_arc_from_archives.jpg#mw-jump-to-license

The building with the dome is the Seat of the Universal House of Justice.

But surely you know that Catholics (and plenty other Christians) and Muslims beg to differ. Now, I will leave the Christians (and indeed those of other faiths) who believe that we have or have had a Divine Administration to argue their corner. Speaking as a Muslim, I think it is fair to say that easily the vast majority of Muslims believe that the Qur'aan is of Divine Origin and that it contains guidance/instructions on both 'religious' matters and matters of how to set up an administration, and that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) established both a purified form of religion and an administration on this basis (many of us will say that our religion is a complete way of life and covers everything, including the setting up of a state as well). Indeed insofar as Baha'is accept that Muhammad (pbuh) was the Manifestation for his time, surely you can accept that he came with a Divine Administration, even if that became corrupted after his death?

 

[The_Fisher_King]

The essence of all religions is one.

Not all religions though, clearly. Since you don't consider Satanism, for one, a religion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But surely you know that Catholics (and plenty other Christians) and Muslims beg to differ. Now, I will leave the Christians (and indeed those of other faiths) who believe that we have or have had a Divine Administration to argue their corner. Speaking as a Muslim, I think it is fair to say that easily the vast majority of Muslims believe that the Qur'aan is of Divine Origin and that it contains guidance/instructions on both 'religious' matters and matters of how to set up an administration, and that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) established both a purified form of religion and an administration on this basis (many of us will say that our religion is a complete way of life and covers everything, including the setting up of a state as well). Indeed insofar as Baha'is accept that Muhammad (pbuh) was the Manifestation for his time, surely you can accept that he came with a Divine Administration, even if that became corrupted after his death?

I know Islam is divided into two major groups. Those who followed the Caliphs and those who followed the Imams. We are told the Imams were the true successors. We do believe that Muhammad founded the concept of the nation state. And His Administration was the first ever in human history to include rights for other religions in a documented Constitution..

Certain laws were revealed in the Quran. We fully agree with that and He brought Ummah or Community.

People or humanity do not realise that without Muhammad nationhood and nation building might have never come about as Muhammad created a proper nation state from warring tribes and many others copied His example.