Good "Islam = Religion of Peace" Debate

[The Emperor of Mankind]

I think @A Greased Scotsman was hoping to hear your response, I know I'd like to hear your response.

Actually I didn't. I've heard more than enough.

 

[LuisDantas]

Bahaullah is dead. My only option would be to take it up with someone who follows his creed and subscribes to his tenets. Someone like you. But, frankly, I'm not bothered enough to do that. It's sufficient for me that you've already shown the inherent contradictions in your faith: you claim Bahais can learn from everyone and you've said elsewhere that any 'religion' which teaches other religions are false is not really a religion - yet you're quite happy to rely on Bahaullah's words and deem Satanism & Pagan religions to be "the outcome of human perversity". And thus is revealed the exclusivity and intolerance which all monotheisms are subject to no matter how much they pretend otherwise.

To be fair, I am not sure what Sikhs think on that regard.

Edited to add: and I don't think I have any real issues with Judaism, either.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

To be fair, I am not sure what Sikhs think on that regard.

I thought Sikhism was a pantheist faith.

 

[LuisDantas]

I thought Sikhism was a pantheist faith.

Far as I know, they are monotheists. But they seem to handle that aspect of their beliefs in a more fraternal way than the Abrahamics.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

Far as I know, they are monotheists. But they seem to handle that aspect of their beliefs in a more fraternal way than the Abrahamics.

I just took a peak at the Sikhism wikipedia entry. Here's why they seem less in your face & intolerant: "Sikhs also reject claims that any particular religious tradition has a monopoly on Absolute Truth".

 

[LuisDantas]

Ah, Absolute Truth. So at odds with itself...

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Baha'u'llah's Administration is the first of its kind in human history.

Ah, now that's something a little different. I have no problem with that statement

 

[The_Fisher_King]

This is our official definition.

"There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly Source, and are the subjects of one God. All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity, were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose. " - Baha'u'llah

Did Baha'u'llah specify those 'few which are the outcome of human perversity'?

 

[icehorse]

Thanks! I felt that although the Scotsman did not agree with me he had been more than fair in hearing me out. One cannot ask for anymore than that. He has been more than decent.

I'm more than happy to be scrutinised and criticised because to distinguish truth from falsehood we have to test everything and I have claimed to have found truth for our age in Baha'u'llah so I except and welcome the utmost scrutiny.

Hi LoH,

I will confess that I'm always skeptical when a believer (from any religion), quotes from their scripture. Because it seems to me that most scripture is inconsistent with itself and so you can - in effect - argue either side of most any argument using a single set of scripture.

So my question to you is what thought process you used earlier when you quoted scripture. My guess is that you already knew good vs. bad and you just found verses to support what you already knew. Does that sound correct?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Did Baha'u'llah specify those 'few which are the outcome of human perversity'?

Religious fanaticism is one of the main ideologies Baha'u'llah condemns..

"Religious fanaticism and hatred are a world-devouring fire, whose violence none can quench. The Hand of Divine power can, alone, deliver mankind from this desolating affliction….

Using religion as a tool to promote hatred is another human perversity which has called itself religion is another false ideology

"That the divers communions of the earth, and the manifold systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the feelings of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of the Faith of God and His Religion. "

Here we are speaking about movements using or claiming to be religious which breed hatred such as the Taliban and Isis and there are many more.


This is Bahaullah's definition of a what true religion is supposed to be...

"O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men…"

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hi LoH,

I will confess that I'm always skeptical when a believer (from any religion), quotes from their scripture. Because it seems to me that most scripture is inconsistent with itself and so you can - in effect - argue either side of most any argument using a single set of scripture.

So my question to you is what thought process you used earlier when you quoted scripture. My guess is that you already knew good vs. bad and you just found verses to support what you already knew. Does that sound correct?

Thanks for your comment.

I always try to give as accurate information as possible so I often quote from an authoritative Source so people can be sure that the information given to them is in its purest form.

I hope this clears that up for you.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Ah, now that's something a little different. I have no problem with that statement

Thank you!

 

[icehorse]

Thanks for your comment.

I always try to give as accurate information as possible so I often quote from an authoritative Source so people can be sure that the information given to them is in its purest form.

I hope this clears that up for you.

This doesn't really answer my question, but perhaps I should clarify: Would you agree that before you shared scripture verses with us, you had your opinion in mind, and you just found the verses that supported your opinion?

And the second question is this: If you had had a different opinion to begin with, isn't it also the case that you could have found different verses to support that different opinion?

Thanks!

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

Not all that new and I'm sure at least a few have seen it before, but....

Having just recently watched it, I couldn't help but imagine what RF commentary would be like I think both sides in this recorded debate did a pretty good job for their position...which is kinda rare, making it more worthwhile than many.

Interested to hear some thoughts on the debate, either as a whole or just on some of the statements/claims made by one or more of those participating.

Pre-Debate - 41% of the audience agreed that Islam is a religion of peace, while 25% disagreed and 34% were undecided.

I truly believe Islam is a religion of peace.

No, really.


Said peace is attained through the attainment of a 100% Muslim world.

Such a world is attained through converting all of the Kaffirs that can be converted, and exterminating the rest.

May peace be upon you all.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This doesn't really answer my question, but perhaps I should clarify: Would you agree that before you shared scripture verses with us, you had your opinion in mind, and you just found the verses that supported your opinion?

And the second question is this: If you had had a different opinion to begin with, isn't it also the case that you could have found different verses to support that different opinion?

Thanks!

Ok. Please forgive me for the use of a quote but this is relevant to my thought processes when I post here. I try my hardest to give you information in its purest form. And it's not all that easy.

“To deepen in the Cause means to read the writings of Bahá’u’lláh and the Master so thoroughly as to be able to give it to others in its pure form. There are many who have some superficial idea of what the Cause stands for.

They, therefore, present it together with all sorts of ideas that are their own. As the Cause is still in its early days we must be most careful lest we fall into this error and injure the Movement we so much adore.

Excerpt From: Hornby. “Lights of Guidance.” iBooks.

 

[icehorse]

Hi LoH,

I've read several translations of the Quran. One I read cover to cover. In debating with Muslims over the years, I'm constantly told that I can't simply read the words. That I lack the historical context, or that I need some Imam to interpret for me. As you might imagine, I find this sort of answer very unsatisfying.

So I wonder: If I were to read the writings that you follow, would the understanding be clear to me, or would I need some sort of religious middleman to help me interpret?

 

[icehorse]

Such a world is attained through converting all of the Kaffirs that can be converted, and exterminating the rest.

I think you've oversimplified a bit. Because Muslims will still have to sort out which Islamic sect is the "correct" one, so that the "wrong-sect" Muslims can be converted or eliminated. Then I think, we'll have peace.

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

I think you've oversimplified a bit. Because Muslims will still have to sort out which Islamic sect is the "correct" one, so that the "wrong-sect" Muslims can be converted or eliminated. Then I think, we'll have peace.

What do you mean..'troo' Muslims would never harm each other!



Please ignore Syria for the purpose of this post. And Afghanistan. And..aww hell just ignore the Islamic world. The troo Muslims like to stay low key, you see.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

The Hand of Divine power can, alone, deliver mankind from this desolating affliction….

And yet, doesn't...

The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men…"

But how many religions really put the unity of the human race and fostering the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men centre-stage? Not that many, I'd say. That may be an aspect of some religions, but I'm not sure it's their fundamental purpose. Worship of God, Goddess, gods, goddesses is often a more prominent theme. Or seeking knowledge. Or detachment from the world. Or avoiding sin. As a Muslim I can tell you for a fact that service of The God/dess for me trumps the unity of the human race every time. What does that make me in your eyes?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hi LoH,

I've read several translations of the Quran. One I read cover to cover. In debating with Muslims over the years, I'm constantly told that I can't simply read the words. That I lack the historical context, or that I need some Imam to interpret for me. As you might imagine, I find this sort of answer very unsatisfying.

So I wonder: If I were to read the writings that you follow, would the understanding be clear to me, or would I need some sort of religious middleman to help me interpret?

Hi Icehorse,

We Baha'is refer to the interpretations of Baha'u'llah in His Book of Certitude but also this is how we are told to study the Quran which I have done.....

It is certainly most difficult to thoroughly grasp all the Surihs of the Qur'án, as it requires a detailed knowledge of the social, religious and historical background of Arabia at the time of the appearance of the Prophet. The believers can not possibly hope, therefore, to understand the Surihs after the first or even second or third reading. They have to study them again and again, ponder over their meaning, with the help of certain commentaries and explanatory notes as found, for instance, in the admirable translation made by SALE, endeavor to acquire as clear and correct understanding of their meaning and import as possible. This is naturally a slow process, but future generations of believers will certainly come to grasp it. (Baha'i Writings)